XI Image Classification - Help Request[edit source]


Another attempt to control the nominations page[edit source]

Yeah, it's me again, feel free to ignore me XD However, this time it's rather more of a serious and sensible suggestion than my previous one. The DNC nominations page is getting a bit overlarge again, and I have devised a few suggestions for controlling it. Obviously, this is hardly the first attempt to do so, but I think it's worth giving it another go. Thanks in advance for the time and attention you give to this, if any -- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 20:41, July 17, 2010 (UTC)

Talk Bubbles[edit source]

If you would be so kind as to please explain how I have er, how did you say, "horribly deface your talk bubbles?" - +DeadlySlashSword+ 03:24, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 22:06, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
There's a simple answer; dark blue or purple text on a black background. Its better than a sharp stick in the eye, but maybe not by that much. It still hurts to look at it.

Blanket Message For Admins[edit source]

There's been talk on the IRC of doing another Magicite Madness-type tournament. It would include more characters though, and the champion would square off with Vivi. Fae has been involved somewhat on the IRC and he's on board. He's said he would personally place me and BH in charge, I'm on board with it, BH I'm not sure. General consensus on the IRC is "yeah, it'd be cool to do this again".

So just dropping a line to ask if you'd be okay with this, and what your take is on how to run things and who should be in charge. Doreiku Kuroofangu 21:13, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 00:01, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
I support the initial timeline for the repeat of this event. As I recall, CSM said we'd do it again in 5 or 10 years. I'm ok with that. I'm not sure that we need to clutter the forums with this stuff just as they are starting to calm to an acceptable level.
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World of Warcraft[edit source]

TacticAngel TALK 23:57, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
World of Warcraft is and remains a giant leap backwards in terms of online role playing games. Its popularity, like a cancer, has infected the otherwise solid design of other games both contemporary to it and that have come since. The game features very minimal required player interaction and cooperation, it has a regressive PVP system even among games that do not feature PVP as its principle draw. This doesn't even go into how much of a step backwards the graphic engine and how ghastly the art direction is. The idea of a queue to log on is so bizarre that I can hardly find the words to describe how... just... terrible that is. The servers are notoriously unstable. I'm curious what it is that is so awesome about it, because its shortcomings are both numerous and severe.

Ogg files[edit source]

TacticAngel TALK 05:31, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
I would direct you to Faethin. I'm not sure we should have music files on this wiki, let alone how to use them in articles. Final Fantasy music is much more his personal project. I'm fairly confident he would know how to help you.

DNC Assistance?[edit source]

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TacticAngel TALK 03:40, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
This all seems to be predicated on the idea that I do not have time to do this or I am not paying attention to the passage of time. I'll give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that you think I know what a week is. In any case, the timing on this is all quite intentional in this case. The community currently has enough distraction in the way of the Magicite nonsense that they do not require further spectacle.

I think Drake knows that if he were to hunger strike me, though I would feel sorry for him, he would wither away in a truly unfortunately manner.

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TacticAngel TALK 03:32, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
I am on here every other day, more or less. If you would like to have a long and meaningful conversation, we can definitely have that with me, Drake.
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TacticAngel TALK 01:56, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
I think you think I think a lot less of you than I think I do think.
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Specific XI Monster Pages[edit source]

Hello there. I was wondering it it would be all right if I created individual pages for each specific FFXI monster (E.G. Vorpal Bunny, Forest Hare, Mighty Rarab, etc.) I ask for two reasons:

  1. There are a lot of pages in it, and if I leave it unfinished (which, knowing myself, could definitely happen), it'll probably be left half-finished.
  2. There are a lot of pages for it, for a wiki that rarely sees people looking for XI information (I believe).

Should I make pages for individual monsters for XI? Oh, and while I'm here, may as well ask another question. Is it okay to use pictures from the FFXI wiki? Jimcloud 03:42, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 03:50, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

By all means, if you feel the need to do this, then do it. I would probably avoid it for any number of reasons. I will probably list a few of them:

  1. There are just too many. There are probably what, 2000 different enemies in Final Fantasy XI? Maybe there are even more than that.
  2. You don't have enough time. I don't want you to start and then realize this is a fool's errand.
  3. All statistics are hidden, so its kind of pointless.
  4. For the most part they're all the same with different names.
  5. I don't know what the page would even look like.
  6. The coverage of Final Fantasy XI is not to be functional as a user's guide. We are not trying to compete with FFXIclopedia. The purpose of the FFXI coverage here is for an outside-looking-in perspective in how Vana'diel relates to the traditions, the nomenclature, and the stylistic themes of Final Fantasy as a series.

But thats just me. If you think you can address these issues, then more power to you.

All righty then. Thanks for your time. Jimcloud 03:53, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 03:56, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not trying to crush your soul. I think a lot could be done to expact the FFXI bestiary here, but I would envision something more like... 2000 redirects to 100 monster families with charts and lists and stuff rather than 2000 articles that I can't see as being much more than mostly empty.

Vandalism[edit source]

For putting up a troll fight. The DNC is stupid, but we can at least show its voters some respect. --BlueHighwind 04:14, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 04:15, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Strangely... they voted on it.
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TacticAngel TALK 04:20, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I think it has more support than what you put up, at least in theory. I think its hilariously terrible, kind of like my history of banning you. You can see my other reasoning above.
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TacticAngel TALK 04:28, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
I think my history will show that I give it significant deference, even if I don't agree with it. You may not respect it and thats fine. You spend a curious amount of time wining about it considering your opinion on it. In any case, I would suggest you fix the fight this week.
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TacticAngel TALK 04:44, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Drake, I think you should know, better than others as we have exchanged a dialog over the last few days regarding this, what I mean. I certainly understand where you're coming from.
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TacticAngel TALK 04:48, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
You are welcome to IM me sometime.
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TacticAngel TALK 05:12, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
It very much you want to parse it. I won't pretend like I don't occasionally have something to do on the exact day that I updated it the week before. If you consider anything between 6-10 days as on time--a period within which the vast majority of updates takes place--and anything else is an outlier, I think you can point to any number of things. You have made mention of the time my house burnt down (or close enough) that you and BHW took care of it for me. I have on a few occasions requested one or the other to update the DNC due to vacation or infirmary on my part. I can think of one time that I completely let time get away from me. For the most part though, I am content with a lackadaisical pace because it fulfills the role that the DNC is supposed to fill. It is supposed to be something to do, but not an attraction in and of itself. You may or may not believe a regimented posting style would lead to a decline in this wiki. I don't think it helped.

This doesn't address the occasional bump in days when things are close or that time that I let it run long so I could try to isolate a few cheaters... which I believe has gotten better, though there hasn't been a good instance to test that on yet. That, and some fights are allowed to run long by design (ie: bad fight weeks) so that people can be involved that want to be.

In this particular case, I believe I addressed your concern above. We have enough distraction currently, but there are a great number of things that may effect when I can and will make an update.

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TacticAngel TALK 00:00, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
Faethin, thank you. I'm not not sure anyone has ever accused me of trying to be eloquent. I know that can be read a few ways and I think they all apply.

Kupo, there are many things that effect my judgment in this area. I can say with some certainty that I have not observed a direct relationship between the success (measured in content) of this wiki versus the popularity of the DNC. It seems like the one has been quite separate from the other, which is not what I am lead to believe is the idea.

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TacticAngel TALK 00:28, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
About what have I been vague in this case? I outlined even prior to the change of the fight the reason for the timing recently. I believe I have also outlined previous actions within substantial detail.
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Yeah, just get someone to be your backup who will automatically update the fight after a bit. Kupohunter FFV gilgamesh.gif 00:58, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

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TacticAngel TALK 04:21, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure from where you'd get that impression.

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TacticAngel TALK 22:33, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure we are making progress here. I will tell you that I care, but you will say that I don't. I don't have a way of expressing that to you aside from the fact that I am here. It is precisely because I care that I am still here. I am sure you will not understand that, and thats fine. I will still try to explain myself if asked a specific question, but you should know by now that I am not concerned with most people's opinion of me, and certainly not the opinion of your mother.
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TacticAngel TALK 23:22, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
  1. When a week is appropriate, as referenced above. There are a lot of extenuating circumstances that would lead me to believe that it should not be.
  2. I have no current issues. Should one appear, I will continue to request specific updates.
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Talk Template[edit source]

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TacticAngel TALK 05:16, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
That looks good. You should be able to tell if its ever wrong because all talk templates will have the left side of the bubble line up with the talk bubble on top of it for aesthetic reasons. Thank you for doing that.

Poke. Poke.[edit source]

Its been a week. OavatosDK, 04:15, October 29, 2010 (UTC) |

Well aware. T·A·C·T·I·C·A·N·G·E·L 22:09, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
Are you trying to prove our points? Θάνατος 03:03, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
Trolls usually do meet your expectations, so I imagine the answer is "yes". --BlueHighwind 04:31, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

MM2[edit source]

Any chance we can hold the finals in the DNC like we did the first one? Would be three-weeks long, but it's a month or so away. Doreiku Kuroofangu 05:26, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 06:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
I will consider it. That is a chance, but my current leaning would be no based only on the fact that we asked you not to have the within the confines of the wiki, to use a message board or other third party site to do it. By we, I do mean just about all of the admins and sysops. I also don't see a downside to having it where it is now as those that are interested have still managed to find it. Tradition really isn't an argument in and of itself as the tradition is just as likely good as bad. We don't swear in our Presidents in New York City anymore, and yet the Union continues.
TacticAngel TALK 00:37, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
I guess it never sticks in my mind that you are an administrator. I'm not sure why that is. I could certainly speculate, but in the end I suppose it is only important that I stand corrected; we all didn't care for the idea except for Faethin.

In answer to your question, many reasons, but the shortest answer is because they are SysOps.

Talk Bubbles and Templates[edit source]

I am not understanding how to set this thing up. Can anyone help me? Lord Noctis 16:31, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

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TacticAngel TALK 04:35, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
Well, indirectly. I will have to make a new type of talk template to reference in order to allow you to do that. It will take a little time. I will try to do it within the next day or so for you though.

Eh. I squared all four corners using the original talk template. So don't worry.Kayreeed Cocoon Sig.gif 05:50, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

MM2 Finals[edit source]

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TacticAngel TALK 04:08, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
As you acknowledged, I said we would host the finals. You may tell me the last two contestants and I will post them within a reasonable turn-around. The normal rules of the DNC would apply including all banned members, voting rules, comments, etc.
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TacticAngel TALK 04:13, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
I will post something else in the meantime. I didn't want a short fight.
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TacticAngel TALK 22:59, December 10, 2010 (UTC)
I am still patiently waiting for my names.

I would be lying if I didn't say that Vivi is kind of unofficially banned (for lack of a better term) from the DNC. Its really more on issue of futility. The margin is really the only question out there. I don't think Square is inventing new Blackmage killers. I will review who is victorious from the next fight, whenever that is. I am tempted to say, particularly since Highwind asked so nicely, probably not though.

Curiously, though, as a bit of a creative critique, if he thinks I'm a troll, I think the argument that he is my accessory, my lieutenant and most trusted ally in chaos is a strong one. By definition, by goal would be to seed as much discontent as possible. His frequent, colorful outbursts would be sustenance enough to keep me fat and happy. His very behavior in rank opposition to me would be what makes this a fertile feeding place and like any animal, I would likely move on to more fertile fields if deprived of the discord I purportedly crave.

As a general life lesson, though, I might suggest that you would get more flies with honey than vinegar, and though you may not think of me as a model of good behavior, you certainly know I, like most, do not reward bad behavior.

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TacticAngel TALK 04:19, December 18, 2010 (UTC)
Need I remind you that our agreement was subject to the following;
  1. The all the normal normal rules of the Dragon's Neck Colosseum were to be used.
  2. The fight would be for the finals only.
  3. The fight would be posted within 10 days of being submitted to me.

I have been patiently awaiting these. They were never actually given to me because you only informed me that the fight would be over shortly. I had to get to bed because I have real person obligations and I returned at my first availability to do this for you. The fight posted is not the finals as I agreed, though I was willing to overlook it because other than needlessly extending the last fight, its no skin off my teeth. Don't characterize me as the bad guy in this. I have tried to be accommodating and even handed in spite of you and your cohorts poor behavior. I don't like doing this, but I'm not going to be backhanded for being a good guy.

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TacticAngel TALK 02:13, December 19, 2010 (UTC)
I think I have proven that I am online and cognizant of what is going on here on an pretty regular basis (4-5 nights per week). In any case, I will consider the tie thing.
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TacticAngel TALK 08:06, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
I will see what I can do. You picked a brutally awful day to do that and there's nothing anywhere that states these fights are supposed to be 7 days long. Seriously though, did you not see Christmas on the horizon?
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In addition, the math was purposely calculated so that MMII would conclude at Christmas time. It was the intention the entire time to do so, requiring each round lasting a week. :) 11:14, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Suggesting DNC fights[edit source]


TacticAngel TALK 04:42, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
At the top of the DNC, there should be a link to the suggestions page. Follow that and use the prescribed format if you wish for your idea to receive consideration...

...and other people will probably have to like the idea too.


I'M SO SORRY!!![edit source]

I was trying to vote for Terra, but when I finished my vote and went back to the Colloseum, I think I might have screwed everything up! I'M SO SORRY!! I didn't mean to do that! Ohnohonohono. HELP!! I followed the directions as best as I could understand what they ment (This is my first time doing something like this), I thought I did everything right. PLEASE FORGIVE ME! (Super Michael Mario 15:18, December 22, 2010 (UTC))

You're fine, it happens occasionally. I fixed it, though I had to remove your vote in the process. Feel free to vote again, just this time don't use nowiki tags when you vote. Jimcloud Cloud Chocobo.png 15:21, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

By Judges Decision[edit source]

TacticAngel TALK 21:25, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
As it is already apparent that predictable parties are going to complain about my ability to count, let us address the rationale behind what just happened in the DNC and the Magicite Madness concept as a whole.

As you are probably aware, since I cannot imagine an unconcerned party reading this, the recent Magicite Madness (II) tournament was held in a somewhat unofficial capacity by a few of our members. The rules of the matches stated that only registered voters could vote. This comes a bit at odds with the concept of the DNC, where I most graciously allowed the finals to be held. Its arguably important to note that the finals were not held at the DNC, so really the final bout did not have to take place at all. As our normal rules do allow non-registered parties to vote, something that may or may not be a good idea, but ultimately does not eliminate cheating, they were allowed to vote in this final-final match which I allowed in spite of my better judgment.

At the request of the creators of this competition, I was asked not to call a draw, which is of course a request also outside our original arrangement. I could at this point offer you the reality that by keeping to our agreement--terms which now the creators wish to complain about post-tournament--I would have declared this a tie and by any sensible interpretation, Vivi would remain champion based entirely on his not having been defeated and the best that any opponent to face him could muster was a tie. No doubt, people would complain about this--MMII ending in a tie--including the people who made the very arrangement with me, because they could not alter the deal when they didn't get the outcome they wanted.

Now people will probably point out that they want Terra to win because she had the most votes with traditional DNC tallying. There is some legitimacy to this argument, but there's also some injustice people don't seem to recognize.

Once upon a time, someone in the DNC was winning, by registered votes, by a significant margin, while the opponent racked up an astounding, in fact overwhelming, number of anonymous votes. In spite of actually winning by vote total, that wasn't how the DNC played out that week, either. In fact, I think I disqualified enough votes to either reverse the decision or at least have it end in a tie. Fast forward to what just happened. We have a majority of users who are in support of Vivi and a very lopsided number of anons who want Terra to win.

It is not the intention of allowing anonymous voters to completely sway the vote form one side to the other. We have never done that, and we never will. Also, considering there is no correlation between registering or not and liking Vivi or Terra more than the other, this is highly irregular, especially when you're taking 3:1 versus an almost 1:1 split otherwise. In any case, allowing Terra to win in this fashion, while certainly arguably right in some ways, is also not in keeping with the history of the DNC. Someone would have complained. To boil it down, the only way that Terra would have been declared the winner was to allow something that has never been allowed to happen before in the DNC.

Ultimately, it is also worth mentioning that if I had allowed that to happen, I would have allowed the anonymous users to decide what would have been the championship of a tournament in which they were not allowed to vote and the people who created the tournament attempted to dissuade me from allowing them to vote. I assume the only reason they would feel this way is so that this exact thing could not happen. Had the other members run this, the ones who had started MMII, the result would have been Vivi's victory based on the fact that the vote was in his favor by registered users and there would be no unregistered users to complain about. Yes, this is an undeniable truth, Drake, and I even closed this on time for you... though that has a lot more to do with the blizzard coming down than any extraordinary continuing further beneficence on my part. In hindsight, this would have been beneficial to me, but I don't have a crystal ball, just a ban-hammer.

I think the choice here is pretty clear. You may disagree. With a vote as close as that one, someone's going to be mad at me no matter what happens. Flame my page, act like children, it doesn't bother me, but I can be counted on to enforce our general etiquette policies.

I will leave you with the immortal words of Metallica, if only so you can imagine the guitar riffs behind these common words; be careful what you wish you may regret it. Be careful what you wish you just might get it.

To clarify, because the anonymous votes became hugely unrepresentative of the logged-users votes, there is a higher chance that cheating was been used (such as, I don't know, users using their IPs so tehy get 1.5 votes together). Furthermore, since the IPs swayed victory, as opposed to confirmed the scores, it doesn't give a real representative. And in addition to this, the fact that IPs wouldn't have been included in a normal Magicite Madness battle anyway makes them even easier to ignore.

Sounds fair to me. Eliminates the possibility of cheating (which seems fairly likely) simply by reverting to the rules the tournament originally used. 21:50, December 24, 2010 (UTC)



TacticAngel TALK 05:08, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
Fae, if our agreement had been followed to the letter, this fight wouldn't be in the DNC--I understand you are chiefly responsible for this breach--and if we'd used the DNC rules to the letter, the result of the match would have been a draw. In the case of a defending champion in any existing sport, and indeed this tradition is one spawned out of sanity, the champion gets to keep his crown. If you would prefer a semantic change to say the fight is a draw and Vivi remains champion, I am agreeable to that.

Ham, even at the time that the fight was originally posted, I had not been asked to exclude the possibility of a draw. It is not without precedent that we do not allow anonymous votes to sway who is the winner and the loser. They have often made or broken ties, which I think is much more fair and generally it works out nicely for the margins since anonymous votes, when people are playing fair, are relatively proportional to registered user votes. That is to say, if 50 people vote for candidate A and 25 vote for candidate B, if 15 anonymous users vote, the anonymous votes would be close to 10 to 5. In this case the users were voting more like 9 to 10 for registered users and 3 to 1 for not registered users. That doesn't make sense unless you embrace the rather obvious reality. In cases of tampering, both the DNC and MMII have limited eligibility, discounted votes, banned users, etc. to try to get a more truthful interpretation of the community will.

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We are still missing something here. Terra got 44+(12*0.5)=50 votes whereas Vivi only got 46+(4*0.5)=48. It's not a draw since we don't use the 10% whatever rule. And saying that "people could cheat with voting both logged in and as anon" could be also said to all DNC fights and yet we don't do that to my knowledge. RazielZero 11:14, December 25, 2010 (UTC)

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TacticAngel TALK 15:41, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
Raziel, I address this math in my original comments. Please see above. The DNC has never allowed anonymous votes to completely swing the loser to the winner.

BHW, you can see the time-stamp on when you asked me not to call a draw. That was never a condition of our arrangement. You can't say 'we agreed to all of the rules of the DNC' if you mean only the rules you like.

all [awl]

  1. the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration): all the cake; all the way; all year.
  2. the whole number of (used in referring to individuals or particulars, taken collectively): all students.
  3. the greatest possible (used in referring to quality or degree): with all due respect; with all speed.
  4. every: all kinds; all sorts.
  5. any; any whatever: beyond all doubt.
  6. nothing but; only: The coat is all wool.

...etc courtesy of www.dictionary.com

As addressed above, if we used all (every, all kinds and sorts, the whole of) the DNC rules, the match would be called a draw, and Vivi would win by default. You asked me not to do that after the fight was already posted, and that greatly changes the role of anonymous votes, particularly when there is obviously cheating going on.

You know that no matter what I had done, I would get grief for it. Both precedent and intent here dictate that this is the correct choice.

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TacticAngel TALK 16:31, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
BHW: No there is no schedule to the DNC. I'm not sure how you want me to add up 50 votes for Vivi. No where did I say he has 50 votes. The tally is on the page already.
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TacticAngel TALK 23:25, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
These are the possible outcomes:
  1. The DNC rules are used to the letter. The fight is well within the margins of a tie. Since the champion was not defeated, he keeps his prize. Vivi wins!
  2. The MMII rules are used to the letter. Vivi is the clear winner by those rules as he had more votes than Terra by registered user. Vivi wins!
  3. DNC precedent is used. Once upon a time one or two bad men decided they really wanted Tifa to win so they cheated really badly (week 88). TacticAngel deleted most of those votes to preserve the balance. This time, it looks like someone wanted the same thing to happen for Terra. Since the administrator of the DNC has never let the tally be switched from victory from one side to the other based on anonymous votes, only to define the margins of error or to push a fight in or out of a draw, Vivi wins!
  4. DNC rules are not used to call a draw. MMII rules are not used in who is allowed to vote. People are allowed to cheat. The tally, no matter how illegitimate, is 50 to 48. Terra wins!

I think the choice here is obvious. I don't know why you would want the outcome of your competition reversed based on the opinions of what people you did not want to vote at all, but then I don't know why you would want to hand over something so important to you to someone for whom you have a consuming mistrust and paranoia, unless this is what you want to be doing on Christmas and you think this is going to 'wear me down.'


IRC[edit source]

TacticAngel, was it really you on the IRC yesterday, or was it an imposter? 13:59, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel TALK 15:49, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
I was on at some point yesterday saying Merry Christmas to everyone, so you may have spoken with me.
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