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Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "FFVIII Enemies". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

I have an idea: Since have to add the stats at four different levels, making the templates to look awful, why not create a template for each stats? Something like Jeppo's Oversoul template, please let me know so I can create the template in my sandbox. --TenzaZangetsu 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. Go for it. Jeppo (Talk) 23:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the support but I need more opinions. --TenzaZangetsu 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Make a prototype in a sandbox page and let's see what it looks like. Netherith 04:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I'd say no for the most part. But seeing what it'd look like might change my decision.  ILHI 11:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

If it's like the Oversoul template, I'd have to say no. If there was a different way to switch it, however, that would be best. I'm imagining something like level tabs at the top that change the information... but I have NO idea if that's possible in Wikicode. --Saethori 12:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

There are two problems that arise. One is bosses. Some bosses only go up to a certain level, for example Ifrit only goes up to level 6. You have to create another template to accommodate this. The other is that the level jumps are not clear cut. A lot of them are 1-19, 20-29, 30+, but some are 1-29, 30-39, 40+. Again that would be a pain to code. Jeppo (Talk) 12:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
We can have something like {{{level1}}} and {{{level2}}} for the enemies, that way it won't be an issue. EDIT: Done, go here to see the prototype: User:TenzaZangetsu/Sandbox 2. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Meh. You have yet to convince me.  ILHI 21:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
There's also another problem: The bosses. Enemies like Seifer (Boss) or Edea (Boss) need another template, I can create it but I'm not sure. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
May I perform some adjustments? Jeppo (Talk) 21:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've put my suggestion below yours. I thought that instead of manually putting {{{Level}}}, {{{Level2}}} and {{{Level3}}} all the time I've added a default, since most enemies fall in the Level 1-19 category. There's also a few bugs in the template that I had to fix. The biggest difference is the Elemental affinities box which I am proud of and think all enemy templates should have. You would still have to create a template for early bosses whose maximum level is below 20, and another for bosses whose maximum level is below 30.
The biggest problem you'll face is Seifer and Edea. You can't make a collapsible table inside another collapsible table as the HTML will have a hernia, or so ILHI says. Therefore the only suggestion I would make for them is split the infobox into four, like [[Sin (Boss)|Sin]], for example. Jeppo (Talk) 22:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
That's why I didn't add a default, for those early enemies. I think we'll have to do that with Seifer and Edea. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Early bosses are easy. Let me demonstrate... Jeppo (Talk) 22:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, three separate templates as and when they are required. Problem solved. Jeppo (Talk) 22:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
It will work perfect with the random enemies but what about bosses?. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. You see, the two templates that I've placed on the left are specifically for bosses. Jeppo (Talk) 22:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I now see what you mean. I think we should start adding the templates in the enemies pages. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll give a few examples to make sure you are 100% sure. Say you want to create the infobox for BGH251F2, its level can go as high as level 28 so you use the middle template. If you are creating the infobox for Mobile Type 8, its max level is 41 so you use the right-most template, but to make sure that the bottom collapsible reads "Level 30-41" you type "|Level3 = Level 30-41" and that will override the default. Jeppo (Talk) 23:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Now that I think of, it would work but we will have to create three template pages. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes we would, but that should be fine. I'd wait a bit, though and see what other people think before you start changing anything. Jeppo (Talk) 23:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I'll ask ILHI. --TenzaZangetsu 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if I could do it all in one template? I should be in bed by now. So many thoughts, so little time.  ILHI 23:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Neat idea I need help withEdit

I need someone to go upload the Triple Triad elemental images. You can work out what I'm thinking from there.  ILHI 23:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

If you are going to do what I think you are going to do, why don't you use the FFXII elemental symbols, just to test it out, if anything. Of course the Poison symbol still needs to be uploaded, but it's just an idea. By the way, I'm not going to preview what I've written here. It took me about twenty minutes just to reach this page, and previewing now will delay it by another twenty, so if there are any spelling mistakes/typographic errors then I apologise in advance. Jeppo (Talk) 00:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
XII images aren't transparent, so it will never look as good. I'll upload them now because I has PhotoPlus X2 which is like PhotoShop, not as good, cheaper, but probably won't kill my computer when I load it up. ;3  ILHI 12:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Is the Thunder icon upside down? Jeppo (Talk) 14:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

No.  ILHI 14:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I thought this game was made in Japan, not Australia... Anyway, yes it looks good. I could put those symbols on the FFX-2 Template, but there is no Gravity symbol. There will be no Dark symbol for the other games either... Jeppo (Talk) 14:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
... Hunt down the games and see if they have their own elemental symbols? I ripped all the icons straight from TTA, and they have their own Darkness element.  ILHI 14:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Dark and Gravity can share the same symbol - both are never in the same game as elements. The only game where they have shown Dark as a symbol is in FFXII. I'll look to see if there are any better symbols on the net than the hazy one we have now... Jeppo (Talk) 14:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
EDIT: Nope. Can't find one. I'm not going further than page 30 on Google Image Search. We could either use the Shadow symbol from that TTA website and risk copyright lawsuits, make our own symbols or not bother with using it for the other templates. Jeppo (Talk) 15:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Not bothering is fine with me.  ILHI 15:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
I knew you'd say that ;) Jeppo (Talk) 15:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Three Enemy Templates Edit

I've revived the three template idea (see top discussion) and made it better. Most enemies go up as high as level 100, but their draw, mug and drop lists change as they level up. Usually this is Level 1-19, Level 20-29 and level 30-100, but it differs. This new template design uses dropdowns for each of these "tiers". Annoyingly, some enemies (usually bosses) are capped at a certain level. For example, NORG's level is capped at level 27. This means that a further two templates need to be created for bosses with one and two tiers.

In addition, I've also added an HP Formula field, since HP increases with the enemy's level with the formula ax2 + bx + c, where x is the level and a, b and c are constants.

The proposed template changes are here. I've included examples of what the template looks like when used. Like it? Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 19:08, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

I suggest a similar template here: User:TenzaZangetsu/Sandbox 2, go for it, Jepp, I think it'll work. ---- TenzaZangetsu This is our year... 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Those were the ones I made when you previously thought it up, weren't they? Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 19:18, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
Yup. ---- TenzaZangetsu This is our year... 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Moved from "Template:FFVIII Enemies 3 Tier"Edit

http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu263/KevinTanza/DaysSaixTalk.png
Anger 17,957 January 15 2010 (UTC)  -   "Common people are nothing but pieces, that I can control at will"
Do you need some help?
Winterwolf ff1 psp
http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu263/KevinTanza/DaysSaixTalk.png
Anger 17,957 January 15 2010 (UTC)  -   "Common people are nothing but pieces, that I can control at will"
I'm on it.

ExpEdit

I understand that in this game Exp doesn't work the way it does in other games. The truth is, it sort of does, albeit different at different levels, and also there are additional factors that effect the Exp earned from fights.

Geezard gives the player 5 Exp. For every level more than this, the player receives 5 Exp. So Exp (Level 1): 10, Exp (Level 100), 505.

Each enemy has a base Exp, and a number which when mulitiplied with their level and added to the base Exp becomes the base Exp (for the enemy at that level) you get from defeating the enemy.

Since all it requires is a bit of expr, and adding the two numbers for each enemy, should I add it? I will happily add all the numbers to the wiki myself. 79.69.196.219 20:26, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

Did this, did HP expr, merged all three templates. 79.69.199.192 21:51, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

AdditionsEdit

I've added complete Status, Mug, and Drop info to the enemy templates. The only question is how we should display it.

  1. Elemental affinities -- how do we want to display them? "50%", "x0.5"? And do we want different colours for absorb? Or just a minus sign? Or both?
  2. Status susceptibility -- currently they're set to display the enemy's resistance, where 0 is no resistance. "Immune" will read when they are completely immune. Should we do it differently?
  3. Mug/Drop rate -- I couldn't think of a good way to put in the primary rates (the percentage)
  4. Individual drop rates -- I put them on the side... but they change with the Rare Item*(or whatever it's called) ability on... should I show this?
  5. Using out of /256... should I show percentages so it's easier for reader's to understand? I could use foot and show the #/256 on the page and the percentage on hover.

Opinions? JBed 22:47, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think percentages work well for the Elemental properties, and would work for Status properties too if that data can be displayed as a percentage. The Mug and Drop could be converted to percentages, decimals, but percentages make more sense to prople - 12/256 isn't as immediately understandable as 4.7 percent (rounded up from 4.68...). A series of backslashed data would work for the Rare Item stuff, like Red Fang/Inferno Fang, or whatever. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:58, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)
Elemental Affinities/Status Susceptibility: In the FFXIII enemies template, I displayed status susceptibility as a percentage (with Immune used for total immunity) so consistency status we should use percentages for both element and status. Absorption is a difficult one. I think a different colour or a minus sign might not be understood as absorb. Maybe we should just use the word "Absorb" or if absorption percentages differs (e.g. Bomb absorbs Fire more than Blitz absorb Thunder), use "Absorb ##%" if it can fit.
Mug/Drop Rate: separate field, displayed as a percentage?
individual drop rates: I would say, for consistency, display in the same field as the item as a percentage in brackets, e.g. "M-Stone Piece (75%)".
And your last point: I always say that displaying a percentage is easier to understand then displaying a fraction. I wouldn't even bother using the foot template - no need to complicate things. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 23:08, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
EDIT: If 0 is no status resistance, then I would call the section "Status Resistance" rather than "Status Susceptibility" (in the FFXIII template 100% was no status resistance, or to put another way, attempts of inflicting that status effect will work 100% of the time)
All elemental things are a percentage. Things will absorb different %s. I don't personally think including the word would look so good. I should check what the Ultimania does. (---it uses "—1"*(where 1 is 100%). BradyGames does the same)
As for not displaying #/256 at all, since it is the most correct form, I would want to include it somewhere. :/ 79.69.206.29 23:24, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Since there are formulas for every stat, I'm going to remove the HP formula and EXP formula things from the table. Then I will add them to foots on the stat names when I add them.

  1. Should I add them to foots, or so many dotted underlinings look bad? (in which case I might remove the dotted underline)
  2. Since I have all the formulas, I'm thinking about making a tab, or perhaps a dropdown within each tab, that lists all the different stats at different levels. Good idea? 79.69.206.60 02:07, November 20, 2011 (UTC)
{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 2}}}
|{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 3}}}
 |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
  |<!--1234-->
  |<!--123 4-->
  }}
 |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
  |<!--124 3-->
  |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 3}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
   |<!--12 34-->
   |<!--12 3 4-->
   }}
  }}
 }}
|{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 3}}}
 |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 3}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
  |<!--if 134 2-->
  |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 2}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
   |<!--13 24-->
   |<!--13 2 4-->
   }}
  }}
 |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 1}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
  |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 2}}}|{{{Mug 3}}}
   |<!--14 23-->
   |<!--14 2 3-->
   }}
  |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 2}}}|{{{Mug 3}}}
   |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 2}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
    |<!--1 234-->
    |<!--1 23 4-->
    }}
   |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 2}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
    |<!--1 24 3-->
    |{{#ifeq:{{{Mug 3}}}|{{{Mug 4}}}
     |<!--1 2 34-->
     |<!--1 2 3 4-->
     }}
    }}
   }}
  }}
 }}
}}
*1234 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+51+15+12)|1}}%)
*123 4 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+51+15)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(12)|1}}%)
*124 3 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+51+12)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15)|1}}%)
*12 34 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+51)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15+12)|1}}%)
*12 3 4 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+51)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(12)|1}}%) (FAIL)
*134 2 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+15+12)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51)|1}}%)
*13 24 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+15)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51+12)|1}}%)
*13 2 4 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+15)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(12)|1}}%)
*14 23 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+12)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51+15)|1}}%)
*14 2 3 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178+12)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15)|1}}%)
*1 234 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51+15+12)|1}}%)
*1 23 4 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51+15)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(12)|1}}%)
*1 24 3 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51+12)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15)|1}}%)
*1 2 34 ({{Round|(100/256)*(178)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(51)|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*(15+12)|1}}%) (FAIL)
*1 2 3 4 ({{Round|(100/256)*178|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*51|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*15|1}}%) ({{Round|(100/256)*12|1}}%)

Now I have divided the Mug and Drops into four different slots, I can use coding to make them display better on the page. Everything I just inserted here is just in case I ever want to refer back to it. If anyone is interested, the code just asks if slots contain the same thing, and they will merge slots if they contain the same thing, and then it will add the #/256 values together before %ing them. The two "FAIL" things I wrote above is because they don't add up to 100%. Since we're rounding to 1dp, something was bound to go wrong somewhere. 79.69.207.29 16:35, November 20, 2011 (UTC)



Okay guys, this is pretty much what it will look like. This only shows low stats because the code on the page will later be edited, and then substed into the main FFVIII Enemies template to make it far easier for me.

Additions

  1. I added the "Help:Japanese" link from the {{Nihongo}} template onto here. I don't think anyone would really argue a reason against that.
  2. Formulas have been removed and emulated into foots. I still have to add enemy's stat factors to the wiki, so this methods makes more sense than having rows. Should I remove the dotted-underline?
  3. Absorb - I made it red text and added foot. Again, I'm not sure if I should keep dotted-underline.
  4. Status resistance - Added lots of code, all works fine. It should be noted that in the game files, where an immunity is "100", the Ultimania states it is "99". Therefore this has been followed here. "155" in game files is total immunity, and when 155 is written, "Immune" will display. All good?
  5. Card - The %s don't add up. You'll find the same in certain combinations of Mugs/Drops. I'm debating what to do here. I'll probably just subst all the figures into the template, and then change 0.1 on the one closest to the lower/higher number. If common and rare card are the same, just the one item will display at 100%.
  6. Mug - As evidenced by only having two Mug options, I have added a function which merges duplicates into one percentage.
  7. Item drop - You'll notice the tabs. I think it's pretty nifty.
  8. Card drop - Pretty self-explanatory.

Any opinions/thoughts on things that need changing? JBed 23:05, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Just a heads up, if no one states any problem/dislikes for anything in the current design by tomorrow I will implement it into the FFVIII Enemies template.*(even though I'll have to update it again later, I want to remove dead/hindering code at the same time as adding stat info) JBed 19:25, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
All of it looks good except the item drop tabs. That bit looks messy. Can't you just have Common Drop and Rare Drop as two separate fields? I'm not too bothered about the size of the resulting infobox. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 20:58, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
They aren't Rare Drops, they're exactly the same drops but with different percentages for when the "Rare Item" ability is equipped. JBed 22:03, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
Although evidently there's a coding error at the moment. Dammit. JBed 22:07, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I was also thinking about adding something for Renzokuken for those bosses that have a specific amount of hits when Kuken is used against them. But since most range from 4to8 regardless... should I just add them to "Other information"? 79.69.203.157 00:09, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, keep Renzokuken hits under Other Information, since specific hits only occur on a few select bosses (Jumbo Cactuar springs to mind and I think Bahamut too).
As for the item drop tabs, it still looks a little odd to me, but I can't think of any other ideas to display it. I'm happy with the way it looks. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 14:44, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Disambig Edit

I think this template needs to have Drain changed to Drain (Ability). Problem is that no templates show up in "What Links Here" to Drain, and I'm not sure what needs to be changed here (if anything at all). See NORG Pod for an example. --Shockstorm (talk) 01:50, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

NORG Pod already links to Drain (Ability), so the template seems to be fine. Doreiku Kuroofangu 02:08, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
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