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Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "Materia (Final Fantasy VII)". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

A Question[]

Did anyone else think that Materia just made FFVII too damn easy. Everyone could learn the same abilities, so your team was just whoever had the best physical attacks and limit breaks (usually cloud, red and cid, right?)I much prefer systems like that of FFIX where you have to learn to ballance the abilities and weaknesses of your party. It makes it more enjoyable, because the mage and the summoners become special characters. What do we think? Thom32

Redone[]

The materia article was poor and vague in my opinion. Like there are many other special materia...well give examples besides the master and the key item materia. I think I gave a more discrete and easier to 'special materia.'

I think it became more incomprehensible, plus you put that random info about Sephiroth and Hojo in there. --Auron Kaizer 14:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I used the extra info and the descriptions on the individual Materia pages to clean it up a bit. However, I don't really don't know what to say about Independent Materia since I haven't actually played the game and its page has no description whatsoever. If I've done anything wrong, go ahead and fix it. Like I said, I haven't actually played FFVII. --Mymindislost 15:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I did not know what the article was aiming so I tried to cover all bases. It looks a whole lot better. The materia system needed better coverage and now it looks great thanks AuronKaizer for the clean up! I added the Sephiroth and Hojo thing to give context to what materia is, science or magic.

Hey, don't forget that Mymindislost also contributed to the editing. Also, that complaint was really baseless on my part, it just looked out of place stuffed in one big first sentence. Now, it looks good, and thanks yourself for bringing this lacking article to our editing attention >.< --Auron Kaizer 19:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Materia (Crisis Core)[]

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Merge[]

I think this can be merged into the Materia page, I don't think we need a whole second article to do little else than denote the subtypes of Materia beyond the five colors. Doreiku Kuroofangu 02:58, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


Eh? Odd Image....[]

Now, I've played FFVII about 98 times so far (no joke) and I KNOW that the image used for the Materia menu, can't be from the English version, since there is no Resurrect ability on the Revive materia. Is that from an International version or something that I'm unaware of?? Xenomic 01:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I know that image now that you mention it. It's from one of the two-hundred and thirty-nine Aeris revival theories, supposedly showing the "Third" level Life spell that revives her. Drake Clawfang 01:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah....I was wondering what the heck that was about. lol....should we still keep it or find a better image that doesn't have "false" info on it? :p Xenomic 01:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT': Haha xD. Anyhow, can't anyone get a new pic? My PSP's snapshot software doesn't allow me to take snapshots from PSX Eboots :(. Also I don't have an FFVII iso -_- - Henryacores^ 01:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll go web hunting real quick, since I doubt we have time to go taking snapshots of the menu atm. Gimme a few to go look for one. Xenomic 01:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

How about this one guys?

Materia Menu.jpg

Think that'll work decently? Xenomic 01:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

That'll do nicely.

Materia's use in everyday life[]

I know that Materia allows one to use magic and special abilities, but in society?

Cure and Heal is for hospitals, Elemental Attacks and Magic are for the Military, etc.

But let's expand upon this more with our curiosity. Like, I think demolition crews use Quake for easier and safer work, no? Mask no Oni 22:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Unless someone finds this in Ultimania, it's all speculation and would end up thrown out.--Werefang 22:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
I didn't say that I would place it in the article. Just talk about it.71.220.74.227 05:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Considering how peaceful the centra were supposed to be (before jenova fell) I highly doubt that even most materia has battle application. If this is just a hypothetical conversation, then it's likely that only battle materia was included in VII for gameplay reasons, but most marketed materia probably had a variety of other uses say... perhaps fixing something that broke or shattered? Since this is the knowledge of the centra in crystalized form, I wouldn't take it that most of their studies went into destructive things... Zuken 16:53, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Late to the conversation, but the elemental materia need not necessarily be used for military purposes. Fire could be used for heating or smelting, Ice for cooling, Thunder for power, and so on. Indeed, there is little materia with no practical use. How does Comet or Death help everyday life? Even Flare and Ultima could have been used as power sources. --Adonzo 03:15, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Mako Spring[]

Hey, the two pictures on this page of Mt. Nibel both have captions claiming them to be Natural Materia. Aren't the sites themselves, though, referred to as "Mako Springs" in Crisis Core? I could be wrong, but I thought they were. Wanted to check before I went in and changed it. Lord Knight Xiron 18:07, February 27, 2010 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron

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I believe so. I just think it would be more specific to caption the pictures as Materia Springs, and say in the text that Natural Materia occurs at these places. Lord Knight Xiron 20:24, February 27, 2010 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron

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Unused Materia[]

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Effect of using Materia[]

Where is the info from that says overuse of Materia weakens the user?Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 01:20, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm curious of this as well, or moreover where exactly it was ever stated that Materia was triggered by a shock from the mind, and how it's taxing on a person's stamina. I've never heard any of this at all. Derekoe|Hot-blooded God of Guns| (talk) 03:18, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

I've checked all out TLS's translation of creation materials like Ultimanias, etc, nothing in there, so unless some random NPC somewhere says it, it's false. For now, commenting it out. Drake Clawfang (talk) 03:59, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
On second thought, I tracked down who added it and will ask them. Drake Clawfang (talk) 04:00, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
On the Way to a Smile translation. [1]. Specific information appeared in The Case of Yuffie section. Netherith (talk) 04:19, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

Pictlogica[]

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Creating individual Materia pages[]

I mentioned previously my idea that I think it would be best to create pages for individual Materias, as I think there's more than enough to say about them in terms of strategy, and also for the VII Remake it's probably easiest to do this. I think doing so would also help people discover the pages more easily, and be particularly helpful to mobile readers who have a harder time reading long tables.

I've created an example page for the Fire Materia. Anyone is free to edit it before it goes live if there are any issues and etc., but I think this structure should work.

Aside from this, for Magic, Summon, and Command materias, I also think we should just redirect the individual abilities to its respective Materia page, instead of to "Magic (Final Fantasy VII)". So "Fire (Final Fantasy VII spell)", "Fire2 (Final Fantasy VII)", and "Fire3 (Final Fantasy VII)" should redirect to "Fire (Final Fantasy VII)", where the Materia page is contained, instead of to the respective section on Magic (Final Fantasy VII). My reasoning for this is just that the individual Materia pages allow for much more info on casting the spells themselves, and will therefore be a lot more relevant.

Please let me know your thoughts. If this is all good with anyone, I'll make pages for each of the Materia. Thanks!--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 00:49, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

Looks good. Maybe something about the Materia sell price too if the info is out there. If it depends on how much AP the Materia has, then maybe just how much it sells at max.
Making the article also the main article for the spell/summon/ability sounds good to me as well. Then something like Quadra Magic is basically already the whole article.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 02:12, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with covering the spells primarily on the Materia pages. I prefer the skills granted by Materia to be kept separate from the Materia that gives them. In most cases abilities can be granted by multiple different Materias. JBed (talk) 09:07, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to adding sell information, but I've no idea how to get it.
Whether we choose to redirect the abilities to their main Materia (and I'd still say something like D.blow is a lot more relevant on the actual Deathblow Materia than it is on Master Command), seems senseless to have a Materia page that doesn't say what its spells do. Right now, the example page only really elaborates on what's already on its section on the Magic Materia page. Looking at the Magic page and FFVII abilities page, there actually aren't that many abilities offered by more than one Materia, and in cases where there are there's a very clear base page where readers are more likely to look for to find the spell info.
It is entirely illogical to redirect to the big tables (which are only really convenient for the 39% of desktop readers) when we have the opportunity to elaborate on the abilities on pages where people are likely to look.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 12:22, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
The Materia pages won't have much they need to say about the spells. All the Fire Materia page need say is it offers the three tiers of Fire spell, but not Flare. Obviously it will have commentary about how Support Materia modifies the spells and when in the game fire spells might be useful, but that info's relevant to the Materia more than any individual spell.
If we really think it's worthwhile to expand on the spells then there's always the third option of giving them their own article too. Although not the case right now, all the commands already have a right to their own article. VII is also like VIII where the enemy's versions of spells are the same as the player's so there's some extra info that could go into the articles.
It bugged me that Magic and Summons used to be covered on the Materia pages on the wiki, and making the Materia pages their main article just goes back to that. It doesn't reflect how skills are handled by the game. The only Materia I might be able to get behind sharing an article with its command is "Enemy Skill", because the evolution of the skillset and the Materia are intrinsically tied. JBed (talk) 13:29, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
Can't tell if you're saying that you'd remove the info on the example Materia page I linked, or are just opposed to changing the redirects to go to the Materia pages.
I doubt there's enough to say about the individual spells to give them their own page, but I'd rather do that than force people to scroll through long tables.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 14:31, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
For a spell page we could have: effect, element, MP cost (and with MP Turbo?), damage formula, from what Materia(s) it can be used, reflect yes/no, what enemies use it, compatible with All yes/no, any comments. For summons... well they are all pretty much the same just with a different entity being summoned.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 16:24, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
Summons have most of the same details as spells subtract being used by enemies. Odin and Choco/Mog are obviously special, but Summons are also special because they can be cast via Cait Sith's Slots. JBed (talk) 19:57, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
If you have a problem with people having to scroll through long tables then you have a much bigger problem than just how we're handling VII's spells. Covering them on Materia pages might sound like your easy solution here, but there are plenty of other cases where the only reasonable solution will be creating individual articles.
Anyway, here's how I'd structure the page differently. The Abilities table isn't necessary but I like it-- also it kind of bothers me to try to fit ability details into the Growth table. If we do redirect the Magics to the Materia pages then I'd probably suggest giving h3s for the individual spells instead. I'd also probably have a dedicated section for the effect of Support Materia combinations. For most Magic Materia the effects are pretty standard, but with some other Materia it's hard to be sure. JBed (talk) 19:57, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
You catch on quick. I do believe in creating more individual pages in a lot more situations where there are things to say about them. One example I can think of would be FFX's items. I'm willing to entertain the idea of making individual pages for spells, if they can be big enough.
I'm okay with the change proposed if we're making spell pages. With "Abilities" and "Growth", I'd just do it as a subheader of a single "Stats" header.
With regards to summons, honestly, it'd be easier to just have a page for both the summon and its Materia and treat them the same way we treat all summon pages for FFVI or FFX. That just seems like the most logical way to do it. Sure they can also be used as master summons, but containing near-identical info in multiple places makes little sense.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 20:08, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
Hows about "character" pages for the FFVII universe summons, and also include their appearance in Crisis Core, Remake (eventual) and wherever else they may have appeared (Dissidia?). Some will not have further appearances outside of the original FFVII, but then they already have their own article like Choco/Mog, soon to be renamed Chocobo & Moogle. Then the "Gameplay" section could link to Materia and spell, or just have the info right there with no separate page.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:03, December 12, 2019 (UTC)
Thoughts on the test page?--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 00:54, December 12, 2019 (UTC)
I like it! Maybe rename Fire (Final Fantasy VII Magic) after the skillset.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:03, December 12, 2019 (UTC)
The redirect right now is "Fire (Final Fantasy VII ability)". I'll probably use this unless we decide to change it.
Thought about it some more, and I do think that it's okay to make spell pages for VII, just because those spells have inherent potential for article growth. There's more to say about strategy when things like Support Materia to pair them with exist. For most games, there's little to say about individual spells independently of their magic skillset, but there's enough to say for VII that I think we're good.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 17:42, December 12, 2019 (UTC)

"You catch on quick. I do believe in creating more individual pages in a lot more situations where there are things to say about them." Even when I don't think there's much to say besides raw data, I think there's benefit in individual articles. As you say, an entry on a massive list article isn't as easy to navigate; lists can be pared down if we have data on their own pages (especially long obtain info); it allows us to split data more conveniently (e.g. I would mention item Elemancy details only on a list on the Elemancy article, I would list effect of items when used in battle only on a skillset-list type page, and would stick mostly to inventory and obtain info on our "FF15 Items" article. Individual item articles would collect all that info for the one specific item); and it will always give us a place to put more details info when we need a place for it.

Spell test page looks good.

I get wanting to have Summon commands/abilities share pages with Summon Materia because (excepting Master Summon) it's all a one-to-one relationship. However since on a technical level it's mostly the same deal as Magic (besides Materia level == times cast) my preference is still for them to be separate, though my feelings are certainly less strong than with magic. Summon commands/abilities do have slightly unique content in describing the summon/animation.

I don't know how to handle FFVII series summons. Bahamut, Ifrit, and Leviathan are all part of the lore so giving them FFVII series character-style pages isn't a problem. The others can probably stay on the summon series parent pages unless/until FF7R gives them a place in the world significant enough for a character article. JBed (talk) 13:10, December 13, 2019 (UTC)

I think I'll go with merging the summon materia/summons pages for now and then we can revisit the topic if we find a more favorable layout. For now though, I don't think anyone will object to individual pages for the Materia and for the spells, so I'll just start on it.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 23:56, December 13, 2019 (UTC)
Actually, do we have any preferences regarding what to use for the infobox images on the individual materia pages? I'm okay to just use one of the abilities unless we have a better one.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 00:02, December 14, 2019 (UTC)
Tricky for purple and blue materia, but don't see a better way for it.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 01:42, December 14, 2019 (UTC)
Personally I just wouldn't worry about images. If I absolutely had to then if the Materia is available in only one place I'd use a screenshot of where it is found. For anything else I'd just use the generic coloured Materia image. JBed (talk) 09:24, December 14, 2019 (UTC)

Just finished the magic pages, finally. I think I'll go through Command Materia next, as those will be the next big ones. After Materia, I think weapons and armor should get pages too. The only question I have at this stage is if we should give Materia a different infobox ("infobox item" instead maybe?) than the abilities, or if we should give the skills from Enemy Skill Materia their own page. There's a lot of them, so I may not do it for the time being, but I can see points for doing it either way. Same with Limit ability pages.--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 18:51, December 17, 2019 (UTC)

Still need someone to weigh in on the above, but another question. For Command Materia, some, like W-Magic, only replace an existing command, and there's not much to say about the command independently from the Materia. Other Command Materia only provide a single command. Though I think Command Materia with more than one ability should have separate pages for each ability, I think in cases where there's only one they should be merged, and the merged pages can have both the Command Materia and Abilities in FFVII categories. Should be okay?--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 22:55, December 18, 2019 (UTC)

Item infobox could be good for Materia if it is also used for equipment.
Individual Enemy Skill pages might be good to explain precisely how to get them and when, as some of them are hard to find.
I think the Limit (Final Fantasy VII) article is gigantic, but all Limits already have parent pages with probably the same info, so I think the info is probably "discoverable" as is.
Would not mind there just being one W-Magic page with both Materia info and ability info.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 02:54, December 19, 2019 (UTC)
Makes sense. I do think it's okay to make individual pages for Enemy Skills and Limits. I don't think I'll work on them though. Depends on if I have time before VII Remake with everything else.
Will be a lot easier just making one W-Magic page. Would you extend that to things like Manipulate, Mime, and Deathblow as well?--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 03:27, December 19, 2019 (UTC)
I don't know! Is it weird if they are not consistent. You can get some of these commands from the Master Command as well. Maybe they should all just be separate. W-Magic(s) would be a bit short though. But someone might start to change the other articles like W-Mag if there is "precedent."Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 03:47, December 19, 2019 (UTC)

Created the first Summon/Summon Materia page for FFVII. Open to critique...--Magicite-ffvi-ios.png Technobliterator (TC) 02:48, December 26, 2019 (UTC)

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