Talk: Mage's Staff

Curious...

		Xenomic TALK - 02:20, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
		How exactly is Magus Rod and Staff of the Magi related to Mage's Staff? Is there anything the same with them, like with kanji or romanji or....?? I'm not seeing it here

They're both related to mages by their names? BlueLionheart (^T/_C) 02:22, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Dissidia pretty much confirmed that Mage's Staff and Staff of the Magi are two separate weapons. And Magus Rod is usually known as Wizard/Wizard's Rod now. I guess it's just convenient to put them into a single article. Mizuno Mahou 08:36, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Removing Staff of the Magi?

		Xenomic TALK - 04:18, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
		I think we should remove it from here, or give it its own article if it's appeared enough, since these two aren't related at all. Agreed or disagreed?

		Xenomic TALK - 23:16, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
		Bringing this back up after a year of not being talked about >____>

Staff of the Magi (賢者の杖); it appeared in FF1 (GBA), FF3 (DS), FF4, FF4TA, FF5, FF12, FFT, FFTA2, FFCC, FFCCRoF, FFCCEoT, DFF, DDFF, and FFL (Dimension). Staff of the Magi = Sage's Staff. For Magus Rod (ウィザードロッド); it appeared in FF3(DS), FF4TA, FF5, FF6, FF7, FF9, FF12RW, FFT, DFF, DDFF, and FFL (Dimension). Magus Rod = Wizard Rod. Both weapons are totally different, Staff of the Magi can get its own page if you separate it. Source is from the Japanese wiki. Fenrir9 23:32, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 23:50, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
		Oh god that's confusing lol...@_@;;

		Shockstorm TALK - 00:00, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
		Yeah, I think it should get its own article. Oh, and Xeno, I can understand why you might think having 50k edits is sad or a waste, but I see it as a good thing - you're one of the most active editors here, and our wiki isn't exactly obscure (#7 in gaming or so last I checked) :).

I just check a little bit more, boy this page is a total mess. If we are going by Kanji, 賢者の杖 is Sage's Staff and ウィザードロッド is Wizard Rod. This is going to be a pain to put them in their rightful place... Fenrir9 01:30, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sage's Staff (FF GBA), Sage Staff (FFIII DS), Sage Staff (FFIV), Sage's Staff (FFIV TAY), Sage Staff (FFV), Staff of the Magi (FFXII), Staff of the Magi (FFT), Staff of the Magi (FFTA2), FFCC, FFCCRoF, FFCCEoT (Crystal Chronicle Series?), Staff of the Magi (Lv71 weapon in DFF), Staff of the Magi (Lv60 in DDFF), and Sage's Staff (FFL - Dimensions). Time to start the other one. Fenrir9 01:54, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Wizard Rod (FF3 - DS), Wizard's Rod (FF4 TAY), Magus Rod (FF5), Magus Rod (FF6), Wizard Staff (FF7), Wizard Rod (FF9), Wizard's Rod (FF12RW), Wizard's Rod (FFT), Wizard's Rod (Lv45 weapon in DFF), Wizard's Rod (Lv30 weapon in DDFF), and Wizard Rod (FFL - Dimensions). That's it. Fenrir9 02:04, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 02:15, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
		Now the question remains, would it be BETTER to have Staff of the Magi with its own page, or merged with Sage's Staff?

I don't know how the wiki works, but it should be merge. Isn't this what it usually comes down to? Similar to the Princess Guard (Crown Scepter). Fenrir9 03:09, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Not totally sure. However, Jbed recently made this, which should help. --Shockstorm 03:55, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the link doesn't answer my question. But looking at other weapon articles, names with the same kanji, but different variation on the English names are usually within the same article. So, 賢者の杖 is translated in English as both Sage's Staff and Staff of the Magi depending on the game it appears. So both should fall under the same article, right? Similar on how Princess Guard and Crown Scepter are found in the same article, but have the same kanji. Magus Rod should be moved to the Wizard Rod due to having the same kanji ウィザードロッド which was called either Wizard Rod and Magus Rod in the English release. Fenrir9 04:33, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 07:12, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
		I don't know about you guys, but I'll probably leave it to someone to try and fix up while I do other things. I do have other things to attend to after all other than the wiki (and my little project of adding the item descriptions to their appropriate pages on the wiki)!

possible source

		Steamygoreng - DO NOT CLICK THIS LINK: JUST DON'T TALK - 19:56, May 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I'm pretty sure I got my Staff of the Magi from Oversoul. I'm playing the IZJS FFXII.

Cleanup

I'd hate to poke Xenomic on his talk page over why there's a cleanup template here, so, um...what's meant by 'fixing page for right weapons?' Tia-Lewise 19:06, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 20:24, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
		It's mostly because Staff of the Magi, Mage's Staff, Wizard Rod, and Sage's Staff were all on this page and Sage's Staff I believe, and not everything on these pages are as they should be, so it needs cleaned-up in that regard as to putting the right information for the RIGHT weapons on their appropriate pages. See above for more details.

Ok, this page was a huge mess, a blob containing many items with different English names and different JP names. I did a lot of research and split it up into two pages, going by the JP name. In the process, a few entries were lost entirely. This was not an oversight; those entries had JP names that did not have 4 or more occurrences in the scope of this wiki. This may in time change! I'll list the individual cases below:

• 魔導師のつえ, from FF9 (High Mage's Staff), was brought into Pictlogica as a staff synthesized from the Mage's Staff (魔術の杖). So, 2 games.
  • EDIT: The Pictlogica staff above should be 魔道師 not 魔導師. The 魔道師 spelling also appears in Airborne Brigade as Wizard's Staff (according to Xenomic's page). On the other hand, the FF9 spelling appears in Brave Exvius. So I'm confused as to where the Pictlogica/Brigade spelling came from. Once again, the romaji are still the same: madoushi.
• 魔術師の杖, from Tactics (Mage's Staff), also appeared in Dimensions. NOTE THE VERY SIMILAR BUT NOT THE SAME initial word in the name! 魔術師 vs: 魔導師 (shares first and last kanji), 魔術 (shares first two kanji). So, 2 games.
  • EDIT: Another confusingly similarly name item appears in Airborne Brigade, the 魔術師のロッド (Magician's Wand) which seems to be from Lightning Returns. The difference is rod ロッド vs staff 杖
• 魔法使いの杖, from FF12 (Wizard's Staff), was brought into Record Keeper as a rarity 3 staff. So, 2 games.
  • EDIT:
• Hashmalum (talk) 01:58, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

For the record, please don't split with the Japanese name in the tag. This means literally nothing to any non-Japanese speaker, and so the user has no idea which page you mean. Can you please think of a better tag name for them in English? I'm fine with them being split, just don't use a Japanese tag.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 02:11, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 02:12, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
		Agreed with Techno, although I'm not sure how we'd be able to go about splitting them into proper tags. @_@;

Yeah, it was not my first choice to use Japanese in the page name. However, under the naming policy they were both called "Mage's Staff" due to numerical majority. If we disregard the official policy, however, we could rename Mage's Staff (魔道士の杖) to Wizard's Staff, since that was the translation in both FF1 and FF2.Hashmalum (talk) 02:27, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

Wwe can just amend the naming policy to allow for instances like this in future, if we want to use "Wizard's Staff", which might be the best option. The other way is to use a more descriptive tag, like (low-level weapon) or something.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 02:36, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that there's a good descriptive tag in this instance; too little commonality between the different versions. (Although at least they share a JP name now, which is more than the original Mage's Staff page entries shared.) Neither the level nor the extra abilities (such as spell cast when used) are consistent.Hashmalum (talk) 02:49, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

Go ahead with Wizard's Staff then, you're allowed to ignore policy if it helps the wiki. However, can you think of a way to phrase amendment to it on the Naming Policy, to allow for cases like this in future?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 02:58, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

Hmm. It's a hard case to generalize from. However I do wish to point out that in the case where both pages have an entry in the same game--which of necessity, will have different names for each--that this could be used as a guide to uniquize the naming. And in this case that is exactly what we are doing, because both FF1 and FF2 had both JP names, and both games had them as Mage's Staff and Wizard's Staff, (and both games were even the same as to which was Mage's and which was Wizard's).Hashmalum (talk) 03:09, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 03:11, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
		Lest we forget, Wizard's Staff is also used for Wizard Rod too, so even more fun confusion times for all!

I think they could have shared the page if they are so similar they can't even be tagged as different very easily. English names are official names too and can be used for grouping weapons. In fact, doesn't English trump Japanese in most cases because we're the English wiki. It could just be explained in the intro paragraph what the deal here is.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 13:59, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

I'm split on this issue. If the only difference we can ascertain between two weapons is the Japanese name, then isn't the Japanese name the best tag for the page? On the other hand, if they're so similar that an English reader couldn't tell the difference without knowing the Japanese name, then is there a point in keeping it separate when it will just end up confusing the reader because what they are looking for happens to be on the other Mage Staff's page?

As a separate issue, that Japanese in the intro sentence would look better in furigana. Alternatively the hiragana should be a foot of the kanji. Oh, software does a allow ruby. 魔術(まじゅつ)のつえ. JBed (talk) 15:40, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

With the exception of FF Mystic Quest, these are Japanese games made in Japan. Nearly all of the actual creative work happens in Japan. The ported versions are derivative works, and sometimes of quite questionable quality due to censorship, text size limits, and simple incompetence. They are the definitive versions.

Furthermore, we cover games that were never officially released in English. Of necessity we have to group their item appearances together based on Japanese name not English. It introduces confusion and inconsistency if we sometimes group by Japanese and sometimes by English. So the best choice is to group by Japanese always.

The reader finding an item page by English name is going to be confused anyway if they are trying to find something whose name changed in a rerelease. There's no helping it, somebody's going to be confused no matter what happens because the overall series translation is a complete mess.Hashmalum (talk) 21:32, January 18, 2016 (UTC)