Talk: Loveless

Revision as of 23:33, 12 September 2021

.

I still don´t get it !!!

I want to understand all of this, whos the prisoner and such ...


		BahamutOWN - ...I offer thee this silent sacrifice TALK - 14:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)



		It is merely a story, but Genesis's obsession with LOVELESS causes him to bring that to 'life' and he causes him and his three friends to be those three friends in the Interpretation, with Angeal as the one that is captured, Genesis as the one that flies away (as in flees, due to the SOLDIER Mass Desertion) and Sephiroth as the Hero (because of him being the hero of the Wutai War). Hope you understand it now :D

Just A Thought


		Captain Darkblade - I've got soul but I'm not a SOLDIER TALK - 18:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)



		I'm pretty sure that the numbers 6/25 on the poster also allude to My Bloody Valentine. The Japanese release date of the album was the 25th June 1992, so I think it might be that, but I'm not totally sure about it.


		BahamutOWN - ...I offer thee this silent sacrifice TALK - 14:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)



		You are right about the release date, which also links in to the name of the album Loveless by My Chemical Romance

Fan Club


		BahamutOWN - ...I offer thee this silent sacrifice TALK - {{{time}}}



		If you think LOVELESS is great please join the LOVELESS Fan Club

100 or more pages


		Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 10:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)



		I was just thinking, maybe the book Genesis reads from is a poetry book that has more than one poem in it, and LOVELESS is just his fav that he memorised, this would account for the book being very thick despite LOVELESS not being that long. Dose this sound possable?, should I put it on the page?


		Xepscern - It's Morphin Time!! TALK - 10:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)This is MY story



		That's what I was thinking. I don't think small change would hurt.


		BahamutOWN - ...I offer thee this silent sacrifice TALK - 14:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)



		Yeah I should have thought about that but well done for doing it


		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}



		I think LOVELESS is just longer than those five stanzas, or maybe it was expanded upon.

My interpretation

Act I "Infinite in mystery is the gift of the goddess We seek it thus, and take to the sky Ripples form on the water’s surface The wandering soul knows no rest."

The italic part makes me remember a scene in Final Fantasy VII when Aerith dies and the white materiar falls into the water, specially during the scene remake in Advent Children. I believe the bold part, "the gift of the godess" refers to the White Materia itself.

Act II "There is no hate, only joy For you are beloved by the goddess Hero of the dawn, Healer of worlds"

Aerith always shows a cheerful mood, even in the after-life.

"Dreams of the morrow hath the shattered soul Pride is lost Wings stripped away, the end is night"

I believe this is a reference to Cloud when discovers the truth about himself.

Act III "My friend, do you fly away now? To a world that abhors you and I? All that awaits you is a somber morrow No matter where the winds may blow

My friend, your desire Is the bringer of life, the gift of the goddess

Even if the morrow is barren of promises Nothing shall forestall my return"

It seems to me word from Sephiroth directed to Cloud. Besides, remeber Sephiroth's last words in Avent Children "I will never be a mere memory".

Act IV "My friend, the fates are cruel There are no dreams, no honor remains The arrow has left the bow of the goddess"

Aerith casts Holy, but dies after.

"My soul, corrupted by vengeance Hath endured torment, to find the end of the journey In my own salvation And your eternal slumber"

This seems to be a speach from Cloud, to redeem himself from let himself be in control of Sephiroth, he hopes to be forgiven by helping fulfilling the will of Aerith.

"Legend shall speak Of sacrifice at world’s end The wind sails over the water’s surface Silently, but surely"

On the verge of the wold's hand by Meteor, Aerith sacrifices herself so she can cast Holy.

Act V "Though the morrow is barren of promises Nothing shall forestall my return To be the dew that quenches the land To spare the sands, the seas, the skies I offer thee this silent sacrifice"

Here the words seem to me not to be sayd by Sephiroth, but by Aerith. I also believe that here "my return" should not be understant as a physical return, but a spiritual return, as it's witnessed in Advent Children.

Therefore, I believe that Loveless is a prophecy like Genesis believed, but about the events from Final Fantasy VII. Zanar Kand 22:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Citation Desperately Needed


		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}



		Below is something that was recently edited into this page. I had originally sequestered it off into a different section, planning on editing it to become more of a "possible interpretation" thing. Then I thought that was superfluous, and decided that I should move the information here, to discuss whether or not it should be put back in. What I snagged: "Throughout the game of Crisis Core, if the player interprets the words of LOVELESS correctly, it can be assumed that Genesis knows the fate of Zack, Angeal, and even Cloud. At the very end of the game, when Zack asks Genesis if he knew all along, Genesis doesn't respond at all, giving the player the feeling that he did know what was going to happen to Zack." My problems with this paragraph are twofold. One, how do we know that this is the "correct" interpretation? Two, how do we know "your eternal slumber" didn't refer to Genesis? It seems unlikely that Zack would foresee his own demise. "My soul, corrupted by vengeance, hath endured torment, to find the end of the journey, in my own salvation and your eternal slumber." "This line can read as Genesis's mindset and soul being corrupted due to the desire for vengeance he wishes to bring upon those of Shinra - the ones who created him. He is tormented by the truth of his, Angeal and Sephiroth's births and therefore uses that pain to fuel his fight against ShinRa and continue his military pursuits. "To find the end of the journey" can be interpreted as Genesis reaching the end of his painful journey of degradation and overcoming it, coming to a point where dying is no longer something for him to worry about. "In my own salvation" can be interpreted as his wish to find a cure for degradation or redemption for the lives he has taken, "and your eternal slumber" can be interpreted as Angeal's longing to die that he knew of (this is shown when he looks above as he speaks this part in the Banora cave)." This is probably mostly correct, but I find the part about Angeal dubious. "Legend shall speak of sacrifice at world’s end. The wind sails over the water’s surface, quietly, but surely" "Genesis mentions a legend of sacrifice, whether he is talking of his own sacrifice (which is also hinted at in the final lines of the story) or Zack's sacrifice to save Cloud from Shinra is unknown. There is also a chance that he may be telling of the sacrifice that Aerith makes when the world is on the brink of destruction due to Sephiroth in the events of Final Fantasy VII. The story of the 'hero' Zack will live on though through Cloud, who Zack entrusted his hopes and dreams to. "Worlds end" could be interpretted as Sephiroth desiring to cast Meteor or just Zack's death." This paragraph drops the "correct interpretation" thing, which I think is great, but I still think it's superfluous to have a speculation section for this poem. "The line: "The wind sails over the water's surface, quietly, but surely," can be said to have something to do with the Gift of the Goddess. Genesis interprets the water's surface to be the Lifestream, using it as his final course of action in healing his degradation as he is aware that soon Hollander will not be of any aid to him. Though he knows he will be healed by the "gift," he is unsure in what context it will happen." This one's actually probably pretty on-target. "The fifth and final act of the poem is unknown for the vast majority of the story, with many people, including Genesis, theorizing how the story ends. This act is revealed to the player near the end of the game where Genesis is heard reciting it, while the ruins of Banora are displayed. A piece of paper floats down onto the abandoned chair, seemingly a page from LOVELESS in which the Lifestream is seen completing. A black feather is then seen as a reference to Genesis and how this 'final act' is his own interpretation and a representation of his state of mind. The line "To spare the sands, the seas, the skies/ I offer thee this silent sacrifice" could be translated as Genesis sealing himself away at the beginning of Final Fantasy VII as a way of preserving himself for a crisis that will threaten the world. He is sacrificing his freedom in order to prepare himself for that day, and also as a 'thank you' to Minerva for fulfilling his dreams of overcoming death. It can also be translated as the death of Zack and him passing his sword on to Cloud to save everything else from Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII." For the most part, I can agree with this paragraph. But there are a few contradictions. Firstly, it talks about a "correct" interpretation, then notes that these lines can be interpreted multiple ways. Secondly, it says that the "last act is revealed," but then notes that it's only Genesis's interpretation. I think that, with a little touching up, this could be a very informative piece. However, I don't think it belongs on the Wiki page. It just seems to me that you can "interpret" anything in these games, but what the Wiki should seek to do is report the facts of the story. Thus, I turn it over to debate. Thoughts?

http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu263/KevinTanza/DaysRikuHooded.png

Darkness Special:Editcount/TenzaZangetsu ^{March 17 2010 (UTC)} - "You have two choices: Live with me or die without me!"

Oh...my...god...


		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}



		What? I didn't actually write most of this. I just didn't like the edit, 'cause it doubled the Crisis Core section & then some & it's all speculation.

http://s654.photobucket.com/albums/uu263/KevinTanza/DaysRikuHooded.png

Darkness Special:Editcount/TenzaZangetsu ^{March 18 2010 (UTC)} - "Redemption is nothing more than a betrayl of your master."

I was just screwing with ya. Well, those mistakes are clearly...well, mistakes, feel free to fix them, I'd help but CCFFVII isn't my forte.


		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}



		I just wish I knew who was editing so I could get them to come here. Things like "the three men could refer to..." are taken out by me for a good reason: It's all speculative. There are a LOT of trios that can refer to. I think I actually let more stay than I really should. We could have entire articles dedicated to each section of the poem just theorizing different things it might be. I think it's best if we just say what's there, note that Genesis seems to think it has a greater meaning, & let the fans interpret it as they will because, at this point, no "correct" interpretation has been named by SE.

Eep! It was me.

You guys called?

Yes, I was the one who rocked up and made a huge edit. The reason I did this was simple... [here's the version before I edited.]

LOVELESS has a great impact in Crisis Core, as Genesis Rhapsodos recites quotes from the book during each encounter Zack Fair has with him. We learn that the book has a theme which carries on throughout Crisis Core known as the "Gift of the Goddess", which Genesis often quotes. These "Gifts" to Genesis were Jenova Cells, to halt his degradation, and the Banora Apple, which was meant to have a rich taste to it.

At the beginning of the game the play LOVELESS is on stage. It is largely based on acts II and III, the play is from the viewpoint of the girl who helps the hero. To make it closer to the original context it also contains additional scenes of two friends. Kunsel mails that he has seen the stage production and quotes the last line:

"Of course...I'll come back to you. Even if you don't promise to wait. I'll return knowing you'll be here."

More of LOVELESS is engraved upon stone tablets within the cave in Banora Village where Zack faces Genesis for the last time. These stone tablets told a short story on each of them about a group of three friends who go in search for the "Gift of the Goddess". These three men take the roles of a "Hero", a "Traveler", and a "Prisoner". The Prisoner escapes and is critically wounded, only to end up in the care of a woman from the enemy faction whom he eventually falls in love with. He lives a peaceful life, but he is tortured by the promise he made to his friends.

The phrase "There are no dreams, no honor remains" is told to Zack early in Crisis Core by Genesis when he is saying something regarding the ones who inhabit the Jenova soul (Gift of the Goddess). This was previously told to Genesis when he was a child.

Throughout the game of Crisis Core, if the player interprets the words of LOVELESS correctly, it can be assumed that Genesis knows the fate of Zack, Angeal, and even Cloud. At the very end of the game, when Zack asks Genesis if he knew all along, Genesis doesn't respond at all, giving the player the feeling that he did know what was going to happen to Zack.

"My soul, corrupted by vengeance, hath endured torment, to find the end of the journey, in my own salvation and your eternal slumber."

This line can read as Genesis's soul has been corrupted from the Vengeance he desires to wreak upon those of Shinra the ones who created him,Tormented by the truth's of his and his friend's birth's, "To find the end of the journey" can be interpreted as either his wish to die and or the wish to find the goddess as he sends his army to the northern cave,"In my own salvation" can be interpreted as his wish to find a cure for degradation or redemption for the lives he has taken, And your eternal slumber can be interpreted as Angeal's longing to die that he knew of (this is shown when he looks above as he speaks this part in the Banora cave).

"Legend shall speak of sacrifice at world’s end. The wind sails over the water’s surface, quietly, but surely"

Genesis mentions a legend of sacrifice, whether he is talking of his own sacrifice (which is also hinted at in the final lines of the story) or Zack's sacrifice to save Cloud from Shinra is unknown. The story of the 'hero' Zack will live on though through Cloud, who Zack entrusted his hopes and dreams to. "Worlds end" could possibly be interpreted as Shinra itself, or just Zack's death.

The line: "The wind sails over the water's surface, quietly, but surely," can be said to have something to do with the Gift of the Goddess. Genesis interprets the water's surface to be the Lifestream, perhaps he already knows of his own downfall at the end of Crisis Core. He knows he will be healed by the "gift," but in what context he is unsure.

The fifth and final act of the poem is unknown for the vast majority of the story, with many people, including Genesis, theorizing how the story ends. This act is revealed to the player near the end of the game which Genesis recites to Zack, before transforming into Genesis Avatar. The line "To spare the sands, the seas, the skies/ I offer thee this silent sacrifice" could be translated as Genesis giving his own life so that he can be killed (so that he does not have to suffer). It can also be translated as the death of Zack and him passing his sword on to Cloud to save everything else from Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII.

The original page, when I stumbled across it, was littered with mistakes [grammer, spelling, etc.] and some bits of information that I had no idea where they came from. All I did was edit the speculation that was already present [tidying it up and such, because I didn't want to remove an entire bunch of information because I hardly touch wiki pages]. I may have left some extra speculation in there, or forgotten to remove phrases already written that were wrong [such as 'the act is revealed' when I really meant to say it was just Genesis' speculation]. I also added some 'canon' speculation [paraphrased by myself] made by some of the development stafff + Tetsuya Nomura [seen on the page of Genesis Rhapsodos].

"It is revealed in the Crisis Core Ultimania Guide that Genesis was brought to Deepground momentarily, and that Weiss and Nero attempted to persuade him to join in their rebellion against the Restrictors, current leaders of Deepground and 14th Lost Force of SOLDIER. Tetsuya Nomura explained that Genesis ends up declining this offer, and decides to seal himself in the flooded cavern beneath Midgar (as seen in Dirge of Cerberus). With both Sephiroth and Angeal dead, he decides that it is up to him, being the only one left behind, to protect the world. In order to prepare for the day when a crisis threatens the world, Genesis seals himself in the flooded cavern. This is possibly a "thank you" to Minerva for fulfilling his goal." [Basically the fifth act of LOVELESS was written by Genesis to reflect his state of mind, which manifests through his future actions.]

And um, yeah. Some of the speculation also didn't make sense [such as Genesis wanting to die - I mean, um, he wanted to /stop/ degrading because he was scared of death.]. But I do agree there was a little bit too much speculation. I just fixed it up [and...eheh, added a tiny bit of my own speculation here and there.]

I do believe, however, that some of what I wrote should stay, considering the 'Crisis Core' section is only as big as the FFVII section, and half of Crisis Core's story revolved around LOVELESS.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

And Neo Bahamut, I've seen you on TheLifestream forums, haven't I?

124.188.208.252 00:52, March 21, 2010 (UTC) Lioneh

http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/Whostolemymuffin/FFWiki%20Stuff/Talkbox.png


		Likeacupcake - Never are we more free, than when we are confined to the realm of dreams. TALK - Likeacupcake 01:13, March 21, 2010 (UTC)



		wow.... You really like talking. You know it just turns into "blah, blah, blah blah blah blah, blah." After about the second paragraph.

What exactly are you implying by that?

124.188.208.252 01:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ~ Lioneh

http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/Whostolemymuffin/FFWiki%20Stuff/Talkbox.png


		Likeacupcake - Never are we more free, than when we are confined to the realm of dreams. TALK - Likeacupcake 01:42, March 21, 2010 (UTC)



		=P Nothing, just that I'll be surprised if someone actually reads that wall of text... =P

Oh, well... Most of it is just part of the LOVELESS page before it was edited by me. :3

People wanted me to show my face and explain my reasons...

So I did. 'nuff said.

124.188.208.252 01:46, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

~ Lioneh


		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}



		Unfortunately, you have seen me there. But that's something I'd really like to discuss elsewhere, such as a talk page. Anyway, I kind of agree with you, but LOVELESS really only plays a background role to the plot. It is there & quoted quite frequently, but the plot would stand without it. It's not even entirely clear why it was included, save to serve as a microcosm to the story SOMEHOW. I just don't like the amount of speculation that's on the LOVELESS article. Someone keeps undoing my edits to the trivia page, but really, how does it make sense to say "the trio could refer to these 3 people"? Trivia is basically always bordering on pointless, but it's still facts, not speculation. In any case, I did read your reasoning in its entirety & I am glad it was presented. I think the next step is for some policy decision to be made regarding speculation within the articles because, on one hand, it does contribute to the peoples' knowledge of the story, but on the other hand, it potentially presents certain fan interpretations as probable or even fact. I would not, after all, have put the information up for debate if I thought it was worthless.

Japanese version?

Is there a Japanese version someone could put up? In Hiragana/Katakana/Romaji, and then a literal translation into English? --Princess Moogle 01:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Interpretation of Acts IV and V?

Okay, I honestly have no idea where these interpretations on the main page came from. I've never seen them in Crisis Core or from any translated side material, and the grammar and writing style are a tad on the poor side. The first three are written on the stone tablets within the Banora underground, but the last two...I just don't know. They seem like complete speculation to me [and I know about speculation! I was the one who made the huge edit a while back! XD [And I regret it, slightly...]].

So what do you guys think? Should we keep it? :/ Lioneh 06:12, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know either and I wanted to ask but I've seen your comment so I'll add here. For me the whole interpretation is not only fishy but downright strange: so we have 3 friends (most likely because we need to have 3 friends to reflect Genesis, Seph & Angeal). » One is a prisoner who loves a female from the opposing faction, the other is a wanderer who searches desperately the gift of the godess and the last one is the hero, right? Well, reading the interpretation part on the wiki you realize there never was a 3rd char, the hero! The prisoner and the wanderer fight in the climax and so the sacrifice of the pure prisoner is the G.o.t.g. » Please bear with me: So isn't *he* the hero? » And anyway, where is this info taken from? From the game we just know the phrases that reflect Aerith's last phrases are from the female that aids the lead character. And that we have a prisoner and a wanderer (i think genesis and hojo mention them). But where is the 3rd char? And how come we know that the prisoner sacrificed himself? why not the other way around? Remuscl 17:49, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Interpretation

I removed the very painful interpretation section, leaving behind the developer comments from the Complete Guide. While the theory is interesting, it was just that, a theory, and was on the page for far too long taking up far too much data for just a fan theory. Now, if there is canon source discussing the removed interpretations, we can have them added back, otherwise, BEGONE. Drake Clawfang (talk) 03:03, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

I don't get it, I'm looking at the 2 versions, & you seem to be saying exactly the same thing. The only difference is that the older version paraphrases, & you use a block quote. This version is more exact, but on the other hand, I'm not really sure we should be using a block quote for almost an entire section. That seems like a stylistic no-no.Neo Bahamut (talk) 03:20, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

The original version had an act-by-act interpretation of the play and further theories like Aerith was the loveless woman left behind and Cissnei was the enemy woman who took in the prisoner. Neither has any basis in the developer statements. Drake Clawfang (talk) 03:29, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, never mind, I was looking at the wrong logs. The page is better this way, yes.Neo Bahamut (talk) 03:36, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

LOVELESS girl in the remake looks like Jessie

Just thought I'd point out that the LOVELESS poster girl in the remake bears a strong resemblance to Jessie, and I've included a couple of images to show what I mean. Kotaku once mistakenly said she won that role in the remake instead of the Gold Saucer princess and thus, would've actually BEEN the poster girl, but we know that's not how it turned out (though it would've been really cool if it had). Anyway, here are the images:

https://i.postimg.cc/SNh3W41d/jessie-Loveless.png

https://i.postimg.cc/hP1wsYHB/jessie-Loveless2.png

Aside from Jessie's hair being longer than in the poster, she's almost an exact match. So we might want to add this to the appropriate section. 71.79.34.141 23:41, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see much resemblance, and without an official source to confirm Jesse is the LOVELESS girl, we should not add it to the page. DrakeyC (talk) 23:56, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. I said Kotaku MISTAKENLY said she was the LOVELESS girl. I never said she actually was. And there IS a resemblance. Look at the nose, jaw, eyes, and the rest of her facial structure. Others have agreed with me. If it was Tifa, you wouldn't have any problems with it. But because it's Jessie and she's an NPC, you deny her this. All I'm saying is that the LOVELESS girl looks somewhat like Jessie. Just like it's said in the other section how she looks kind of like Aerith in one of the other games. That's all that I'd like added, just that one line.

And I think multiple people should look at the images before a decision is made, not just you. Because as I've said, others have agreed with me that the girl does look somewhat like Jessie. 71.79.34.141 01:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I did read what you wrote and I said what I said. I don't think Jesse looks like the LOVELESS girl. And a vague resemblance is not worth noting on the page. As for Tifa, I don't care about Tifa so I don't know why you brought up her, but she is not relevant to this conversation. DrakeyC (talk) 04:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Then why did you misstate what I said? And it's more than just a vague resemblance. See my comment below. I brought Tifa up because if it were Tifa I was asking about instead of Jessie, she would've been given more consideration. And it's a known fact that SE has a tradition of making the LOVELESS girl look like one of the main girls in each FF7 property she's in, so the possibility that they made her look like Jessie isn't as unlikely as you think.

I don't see a huge amount of resemblance either... nor does she resemble Tifa either. Either way, this does not satisfy Project:Verifiability, so I see no reason for inclusion.--

Technobliterator ^T_C 04:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Look at the curve of the jaw, the eye shape, all of it. It's more evident in the second picture, but it's definitely there. The color difference and lesser quality of the LOVELESS image I used might be throwing you off. Try referencing a higher-quality version of the remake poster. You need more than two sets of eyes to check this, a lot more. Two is not a sufficiently large sample size. Here's another comparison image, this time with a higher-quality version of the poster girl. Please look at it, the resemblance is much more evident here:

https://i.postimg.cc/qRwmLVXq/jessie-Loveless3.png

71.79.34.141 05:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

They don't look alike. LOVELESS girl has upturned nose and Jessie has downturned nose. LOVELESS girl has straight eyebrows and Jessie has curved eyebrows. Jessie's neck is thinner too.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Wrong. The poster girl's picture is blurrier and at a slightly different angle, so that may throw you off, too. You need to look at the totality, not individual features at a particular angle. The third link makes the overall resemblance abundantly clear. I never said it was exact, just very close. Of course SE would tweak some things so there are slight differences, but the basic face is undoubtedly Jessie's. That is what you need to look at. Please look at the third link again, especially.

https://i.postimg.cc/qRwmLVXq/jessie-Loveless3.png

I just think a line could be added that says something like, "The LOVELESS poster girl in the remake bears a fairly strong resemblance to Jessie and could have been designed to look like her."

71.79.34.141 18:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Aside from the fact not a single person agrees with the resemblance (no one has agreed on discord either), I linked the policy above that explains we will not consider this addition without a) a reliable source declaring developer intent (which has not been provided) or b) evidence presented that passes the duck test (which this does not).

We will not add this to the page, and constant insistence that everyone else must be missing something that is allegedly obvious is unlikely to change any minds on this topic.--

Technobliterator ^T_C 21:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I have others I've spoken to who are willing to post here to confirm what I've said. And you have to be blind not to see the resemblance. Look at the THIRD picture. There are more people in the fandom than just wiki staff. You wouldn't be refusing her if she was a PC or Tifa. I'll quote those I've spoken to so far:

"If Jessie took her headband off and cut her hair short, she would look exactly like that. They even have the same nose. It's definitely not Tifa or Aerith." - Bubbzilla https://twitter.com/Alex73995548

"I think she has a lot of resemblance to it, it's probably like an art concept of the lead." - IB Edits https://twitter.com/IBEdits1

"Yes...looks similar, yes." - Dag2Re https://twitter.com/ClerithTrueLove

It's not as one-sided as you think. You just don't want to give her anything or listen to anyone who thinks differently than you do. It's always deny, deny, deny. Never give. Never do anything to put her in a good light but always diminish her and put her down. Why do you all hate her so much? Because she isn't Tifa? Isn't a PC? Why is one single sentence such a big deal to add? And how do I know you were telling me the truth about discord? I didn't see the discussion. I have no way of knowing. Look AGAIN at the comparison picture of Jessie with her eyes closed. You CAN'T miss the resemblance. I'm not saying she is the poster girl, just that the girl may have been designed to look somewhat like her. Allow her this one thing, if you care about her character at all. 71.79.34.141 00:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

tl;dr--

Technobliterator ^T_C 01:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

"Doesn't look similar at all." - Plato, The Republic Chapter 4.

"They're completely different people. Just a coincidence at best." Ulysses S Grant, after the Battle of Shiloh.

"This conversation has gone on too long for no purpose and I'm closing it" - me, right now. ScatheMote 01:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

So you completely discount those who've said they agree with me. So much for being unbiased. And you never answered my questions. I'd like you to. And also, I have another comparison image for you to look at. I rendered Jessie's model with as close to the same hair and pose as possible and matched the coloring of the poster image as best I could, even blurred it some as well to try and match the style.

https://i.postimg.cc/tRPPM8r3/jessie-Loveless4.png

NOW do you see the resemblance? It's a lot closer than you think, you were just going by superficial apparent differences based on her not being in the exact same pose as on the poster and under different lighting (and thus, different shadows as well). SE has an established, documented tradition of modeling the LOVELESS poster girl after one of the significant girls in EACH FF7 property. It's NEVER exact, but it IS there. You can look it up, and I suggest that you do. They'd have no reason to not carry on that tradition with the remake, especially with one of the most significant NPC's actually BEING an actress. So please try again. 71.79.34.141 23:09, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

You can't possibly argue that if you edit a model, say A, to look more like another model B, then A looked like B before edits. Honest to god I can't see the resemblence pre-edits and I looked at it for a while. I think you might just be seeing things dude. If SE models LOVELESS poster girls after the FFVII girls then that should be mentioned on the LOVELESS article if it's not already, but this particular case doesn't seem to be an example of that. If SE said that the LOVELESS girl was modelled after Jessie, then a citation to an interview or something would also make it appropriate to put it in the article. But just "I think that two models sort of like each other, and I have some friends who agree" doesn't make the cut. We've had Tifa stans on Twitter try to convince us that a bunch of Clerith stuff was noncanon basically because they said so; that also didn't make the cut.

The thread was locked because you were stonewalling -- you can't just argue something over and over, convincing absolutely nobody, and then put what you were arguing in the article without consensus when everyone else gives up on trying to convince you. Anyways, we sincerely apologize for an error in the comment posted by ScatheMote last week, as he meant to say "This conversation has gone on too long for no purpose and I'm closing it. Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed." Cat (meow ∙ hunt) 23:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)