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..How is that Trivia..Trivia? Fallen-Todesengel 17:22, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
It's not really, is it? If the guide indeed says that, we should have an exact quote and put it in the article somewhere? Now it's too vague. Keltainentoukokuu 18:55, May 30, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
Should we take it out until we get actual proof? or keep it there, put up something that says it might be unreliable until we get a decent source? Fallen-Todesengel 22:44, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
Excerpt from the Events section of the Datalog, Chapter Thirteen: "It is for this day that Barthandelus built Cocoon, tended to its people and watched over the servants of the Pulse fal'Cie". Note the three words "Barthandelus built Cocoon". But the people from Gran Pulse believe that Lindzei built Cocoon. From that evidence, both Lindzei and Barthandelus are the same. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 22:53, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks. Fallen-Todesengel 22:20, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
The problem is the story falls apart if Barthandelus is Lindzei, and I'm usually the first one to defend a story's/movie's/video game's plot. The Analects are full of statements contradicting Lindzei being Barthandelus. And you can't dismiss the Analects as they are the source of information on the origins of Pulse & Cocoon.
Analect VIII: "As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse, so are the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon the brood of Lindzei. But all gods are not alike." This clearly states that Lindzei is a God, or a Maker, not a Fal'Cie.
And later in the same Analect: "Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them. They were betrayed all the same; left orphans when their Succubus fled this earthly realm." This states Lindzei left, just like the Maker, but Barthandelus is still "in the earthly realm."
Analect IV. "The Goddess pitied the fools who so blindly bowed to Lindzei's will, and so She robbed Ragnarok of power, putting the l'Cie to an early crystal sleep, Focus yet incomplete." Why does Barthandelus want to summon back the Maker who has already gone out of her way to stop the very thing he's trying to do again? It's nonsense.
Furthermore, why exactly is a Maker of an entire world concerned with bringing back the Maker of another world. They need to use tools, the L'Cie, to destroy fine, but why wouldn't Barthandelus and all the other Fal'Cie who ultimately end up maintaining the much more advanced world of Cocoon not just improve Gran Pulse? There's no point. It makes more sense if "built" is "repaired" or "rebuilt" since we know Cocoon was repaired after the War of Transgression. Gran Pulse is a larger world, but it is much less sophisticated and thus simpler to keep running at least at the quality of life suggested by the remains of Oerba, Paddras, and Haerii.In short, Barthandelus cannot unambiguously be said to be Lindzei. Saying the strategy guide suggests is acceptable though, particularly if the guide does in fact suggest it.
Just because it says in the datalog Barthandelus built Cocoon doesn't mean he's Lindzei. Lindzei could have created Barthandelus as the 'overseer' fal'Cie who would look after Cocoon's building. After all, didn't BOTH Lindzei and Pulse leave the fal'Cie's to 'finish' the worlds as they left? What I understand is, that Lindzei created the Cocoon fal'Cie and gave them the task of finishing Cocoon. As Barthandelus appears much more autonomous than the other fal'Cie, he might well have been put in the role of leader/overseer who would look after it. It doesn't make sense that Barthandelus would be god, because then he shouldn't be restricted by his programming like the other fal'Cie, and he could pass through the door of souls to the other side, he wouldn't have to kill everyone in Cocoon to open the door. The "created Cocoon" line might also mean more like "created what it is today" rather than originally created it from scratch. Keltainentoukokuu 15:53, June 2, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
I believe there's a difference between "Created" and "Built". The analchts says Lindzei created coccoon and datalog says that Bart built it. Lindzei is a god and Bart is a Fal'Cie created by Lindzei.
I would buy that.
No matter which horse you back the story is still flawed. There will come no explanation without a bunch of new questions that cannot be answered. For example: If Lindzei is a god, why would she create cocoon? What is cocoon for? I think it's clear as day that cocoon was only built for one thing. To sacrifice the entire population so that the path to the vanished gods can be opened. If Lindzei is a god and created cocoon, this will make no sense at all.
Another thing that doesn't make sense: Ragnarok attempted to destroy orphan before, but were robbed of it's power by Her Providence the goddess. Come again? Didn't they leave!? WTF?
- Good points. To me it seems Lindzei isn't as powerful a god as Pulse and maybe wasn't powerful enough to create its own planet, only a mini-planet in the atmosphere of another already-existing planet. I think we may assume that there are plenty of gods in the universe, but that the ones related to the world of FFXIII are only these three. So there could be gods that are more powerful than others. The Goddess is the Goddess of Death the one who operates the "Door of Souls" and she didn't create anything, but guess she's the one still present. Keltainentoukokuu 11:56, June 7, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
Seems to me Lindzei is just really hard to pin down.
The inhabitants of Gran Pulse believe(d) that Lindzei tricked many of the fal'Cie into creating Cocoon, and large numbers of humans into migrating there, but the Cocoon fal'Cie (namely Orphan and Barthandelus) claim that it was Hallowed Pulse, or "the Maker", that instructed the fal'Cie to build Cocoon as a paradise for humanity, and promptly "left" (whatever that means), and their plot to destroy Cocoon is conceived with the aim of getting the Maker to return in mind.
Similarly, it is unclear whether it was Lindzei who robbed Ragnarok of its power in order to save Cocoon during the War of Transgression, or whether it was Etro. This issue gets even murkier since it could be claimed that Ragnarok at the time was acting at only 50% of its total power, since Fang had transformed without Vanille.As far as I can see, without further information there's no way of setting the story straight, as per a true trickster god, as Lindzei seems to be. We simply don't know enough of the gods of FNC and how they work, and Lindzei especially. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people seem to be taking the Analects as canon, but in truth they're no more reliable than the Sanctum party line - they may mention new elements we don't get elsewhere, but they're still just the Pulsian take on the situation, and equally likely to be propaganda, misdirection, or just plain wrong.
- I think the Cocoon fal'Cie are different of the Pulse fal'Cie. They have a different brand and the analects say that Cocoon fal'Cie are "Lindzei's brood". I think there are two Makers, the Maker (Pulse) who made Gran Pulse and the Maker (Lindzei) who made Cocoon. It is rather unclear if the Cocoon fal'Cie want to summon Pulse or Lindzei or both or what. The analects talk of Pulse as the Maker, but when Cid mentions the Maker to the group, it is unclear if this is the same Maker as in the analects, or if he actually means Lindzei, whom the Cocoon fal'Cie might refer by the same name, we don't know. I think it also unlikely it was Lindzei to rob Ragnarok of power since Lindzei is "gone". And wouldn't the Pulsians be more likely to blame Lindzei for everything than the Goddess, the fact that they even mention it was the Goddess, doesn't it suggest they "know better"? Of course, how would they know better, but I guess that's just one of those things; the analects mention a "seer" saw it, so guess there is something supernatural going on there. It would, I guess, make sense the humans would be more "connected" to the divine than the fal'Cie, having a "soul", so I guess a "seer" could exist.Keltainentoukokuu 16:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
I think that's definitely plausible, if a little on the speculative side.
The only thing we can pin down on Lindzei is that he/she/it is a Trickster God, and the Cocoon fal'Cie at least seem fairly certain that the god they want is the Maker, who apparently created both humans and fal'Cie, and the world of Pulse, and gave the order for the construction of Cocoon. Superpope and Orphan definitely seemed to think that all fal'Cie had the same origin, the Maker, whom the Pulsian Analects identify as Hallowed Pulse. Orphan and Bart, as two of the head fal'Cie, and who were around when all of this stuff was going on, could at least be assumed to be more well-informed than any human prophet or oracle, and on the surface the whole "created humans and fal'Cie" thing looks to be outside Lindzei's remit, and we don't know whether he/she/it would have been capable of making his/her/its own fal'Cie.
On the other hand, the very thing about Trickster Gods is that they are Tricksy, and you could very well be right. Again, we have very little solid information on the details surrounding the FNC gods. We know that the Sanctum, and Orphan and Barthandelus in particular, are about as trustworthy as Greeks with 100-foot tall hollow wooden horses, and for all we know the inhabitants of Pulse could have been just as bad, seer or no seer. It could be that the whole "brood of Lindzei" thing was just a load of Pulsian propaganda. Ironically, the only two trustworthy people I can think of that might actually know something were in the party during the game, and they didn't say anything on the subject.Hopefully the other FNC games, which will be set in the same universe but not the same world, will shed some light on the subject.
- What makes me think that the Sanctum fal'Cie and the Pulse fal'Cie aren't on the same side is because PSICOM destroy Anima. That isn't very friendly. I think Bart and friends could have stopped it had they wanted to. Also the Pulse fal'Cie appear apathetic to the goings-on. 500 years before the game's start it appears Anima goes on a war against Cocoon and brands his l'Cie to fight it, but it might be for another reason than summoning the Maker. I don't remember what "superpope" and Orphan say, but they might be only talking of "their own kind" and leaving the Pulse fal'Cie out of the question since they're not really even part of the plan.
- Why I don't think it makes sense that the Cocoon fal'Cie would originate from Pulse is that they have a completely different brand. The symbol is more than just a "tattoo" on a l'Cie - the Cocoon fal'Cie symbol is engraved in a lot of places, especially in Orphan's cradle, whereas the Pulse fal'Cie "logo" is printed in giant size on the doors of the Pulse Vestige. Also, the Pulse fal'Cie seem more "general" beings, and it's unclear if all of them even have a Focus, like what is Dahaka doing? But the ones in Cocoon are very specialised and like created for Cocoon, like Phoenix and Carbuncle and Kujata. Also, when Orphan dies all of the Cocoon fal'Cie die along with it, like they are all linked to it. The Pulse fal'Cie seem more autonomous and don't really seem to "work together".
- If all the Cocoon fal'Cie die when Orphan dies, then what is the point of summoning the Maker? I think that the Cocoon fal'Cie are just generally very unhappy. Tending to the people isn't very rewarding and they can't die of old age and they can't kill themselves so they just have to go on and on and on and on producing light and producing water and whatever is their designated job. The Maker who created them is long gone so it feels a bit pointless to even keep at it after all this time. Also, they feel bitter that when humans die, they pass through the Door of Souls to the "other side" and get to reunite with the Makers. Whereas they are just forced to toil there tending to them forever. So they wish to commit suicide, basically. They only wish that maybe, when all of Cocoon is destroyed, the Door of Souls will open, and though they can't pass through it, they can at least get a little glimpse and maybe feel the presence of their Maker as they find peace in death.Keltainentoukokuu 20:16, July 9, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
- I don't mean to resurrect a dead topic, I just wanted to point out: this information is all taken from Gran Pulse mythology. It could be just that: a myth. Aerlight 23:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Lindzei symbol and Cocoon fal'Cie[edit source]
Just noticed the some Cocoon fal'Cie resemble the Cocoon l'Cie brand and Lindzei's statue. In shape. Just thought it's interesting! The Pulse fal'Cie don't seem at all as united.Keltainentoukokuu 20:48, October 23, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu
Isn't Lindzei supposed to be female? The Analects refer to her as a Succubus which is a female demon.
- Lindzei statue appears to be female, and Barthandelus appears to imagine Lindzei as his mother as well. The official mythology calls it a he though(?). Gods could be considered genderless, because it's not like they have any sexual reproduction.Keltainentoukokuu 22:20, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Based on Jenova?[edit source]
Look at these two pics:
Don't you think that Lindzei resembles Jenova? And notice how Barthandelus considers Lindzei a "mother", similarly as Sephiroth thought of Jenova... Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 17:39, September 26, 2011 (UTC)
- It is assumed because Etro is called "goddess" and Pulse and Lindzei are called "god".Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 19:47, July 29, 2012 (UTC)
- The Japanese word for Maker/God is Kami, which is gender neutral. Succubus on the other hand is not. Lindzei's appearance is clearly female, not to mention Orphan thinks of Lindzei as his mother. Why would we ignore all that evidence because of a gender neutral reference? --Nagumo baby
- The statues in Narthex and Lindzei's image in the final boss design are not the true images of Lindzei, but as Barthandelus/Orphan sees it. So we don't know what Lindzei looks like. Succubus can also be viewed as a demon that takes the appearance of a beautiful woman to seduce men to their doom, but is not its true appearance. This is what I think the use of the word Succubus alludes to in the analect. I always assumed Lindzei was male because only Etro is ever specifically said to be a goddess and is talked of as "the" goddess like she is the only one. However, it's true this may be because a lot of the stuff concerning Etro is from the Farseers' point of view who worship Etro, so for them Etro would be the one and only goddess. So indeed Lindzei's gender may be more ambiguous as this article suggests. It has been mentioned in the article, though, that Lindzei is depicted as a feminine figure in the Orphan's Cradle, so it's not intended to obfuscate this fact.
As far as I know, Succubi are strictly female demons, not demons that take the appearance of women. The male equivalent of a Succubus is an Incubus.
- It would make sense if all gods were unisex since it's not like they need to reproduce sexually...or who the hell knows. I'll add something to the intro about it, please feel free to edit it for clarification. I'd rather not change it completely to "she" because I haven't seen that used in regards to Lindzei, but then it's true there isn't so much info available on this deity.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 14:36, July 30, 2012 (UTC)
Actually, in the Final Fantasy XIII-2 card decks for Serendipity, the three figures represent each of the three gods, with their names written in their respective scripts between their emblems: The King depicts a wandering Pulse; the Queen depicts a laid Etro, and the Jack depicts Lindzei.
Since Etro and Pulse are explicitly referred to as Goddess and God, and the Jack is male (Lindzei is second to Pulse, tasked with protecting Bhunivelze; a servant, per say), the ambiguity is lifted, and Lindzei can be considered male. - Henryacores^ 18:59, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
I don't know about that. Another word that is used to refer to the Jack card is Knave. Jack/Knave can mean male servant, but it can also just refer to a lying, deceitful person. Lindzei is described as such in the Analects. While it's true that Jack is always male, I wouldn't consider that sufficient enough evidence since XIII-2 does not take place in the real world, so the Jack card doesn't necessarily has to be depicted as male in the XIII-2's "world".
I also doesn't think it's fair to dismiss evidence that Lindzei is female from the Analects because it's from an in-universe source and thus unreliable, in favor of something that technically doesn't have any more credibility. --Nagumo baby (talk) 19:28, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
Final Fantasy XIII's exploration of the mythology is much more unreliable than XIII-2's, because it's based on records of Gran Pulse's civilization, which clearly had little notion of the truth behind the mythos. They didn't know the real purpose of the fal'Cie or tasks of their gods, which we do, and not through them. They were victim to the plots and aspirations of the fal'Cie, and only Paddra Nsu-Yeul's words can be assumed to be true. - Henryacores^ 19:39, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
There is no other female suit in a deck of cards than the queen that could have been given to Lindzei anyway, if they wanted to use the picture cards. Still...Jack isn't exactly gender-neutral.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 22:56, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
- There's the Joker, I guess? Etro killed herself and gave mankind their spirit: the Chaos in their hearts is completely...well, chaotic, with lack of other words (maybe... unpredictable; random?). But the Jack is clearly a male suit. - Henryacores^ 01:45, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
- But this wasn't my original point: they surely could have found plenty of (less ambiguous) trinities to fit into King/Queen/Jack in the game. They used a very significant Pulse/Etro/Lindzei. - Henryacores^ 01:48, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
I don't know what to believe anymore... Well, I think we should just leave the article as it is for the time being, and wait until Lindzei makes an appearance in a FNC game. Then we'll know for sure. --Nagumo baby (talk) 12:31, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
- You're completely right about the Jack card. Is there any way we could get decent images of those three cards? It might be worth adding to the page since it's another of the few images we have of these three. This is all I was able to muster from what's online   . -Sauron18 (talk) 18:39, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Creation of Humanity[edit source]
I know Etro is credited with the creation of humanity but which one of the other Fal'Cie physically created them?
From the Analects.
Luminous lamented, for creation spiraled unto doom. Stout fashioned earth, that future might take root. Sage turned mind’s eye inward, seeking truth profound. Fool desired naught, and soon was made one with it. Maker forged fal’Cie, from fragments Maker’s own. Maker forged Man, from traces once Divine In time the gods departed, leaving all by their hands wrought. Fal’Cie were as Man forsaken, orphans of Maker absconded.
So who created humans from Etro's remains, Pulse or Lindzei?
Translation cuts out Lindzei?[edit source]
"It is only ever mentioned by name in the Analects section of the Datalog in Final Fantasy XIII, and in a name of a fragment in Final Fantasy XIII-2."
The problem is that this is only true going by the English version. Lindzei's mentioned in the main game a few times in the Japanese, usually as a reading for '悪魔' (demon, devil, etc.)
Vanille: ラグナロクは羽ばたき 悪魔（リンセ）のファルシと戦ってコクーンを打ち砕こうとした
Fang and Vanille don't particularly say anything we don't know - the people of Gran Pulse were scared to death of Lindzei and feared an attack coming from her Cocoon fortress, led by her fal'Cie servants - but I think it's just worth noting that she's not so obscure as you'd guess from the English version.
Lindzei and The Great Flood[edit source]
Ever notice that Lindzei has some similarities to God of The Great Flood and with the Sanctum acting similar to Noah's Ark and Lindzei's Genocide as The Great Flood. Queen Darkness Von Haven (talk) 04:38, March 30, 2014 (UTC)
Murals in Lightning Returns[edit source]
I know the 2 murals depicting Lindzei are supposed to in fact be Bhunivelze. But I think the writer or producer or howeve said that in the interview made a mistake. I mean we see Bhunivelze depicted in the last mural and it looks identical to the actual Bhunivelze at the climax whereas the deity depicted in the other two clearly look nothing like Bhunivelze (Pulse doesn't look anything like he does in FFXIII either for that matter, but he may have changed his appearance later). The mural clearly shows what is Lindzei creating humanity from Etro's remains. We know Bhunivelze didn't do that and he was asleep in crystal when humanity was anyway. If that is Bhunivelze in the first 2 murals alongside Pulse than it just makes no sense whatsoever. I suppose we'll have to wait and see for further clarification on the matter. I'd ask whoever it was (Kitase I think who said it was Bhunivelze) to clarify this but I wouldn't know what site to go to and contact him. --220.127.116.11 02:41, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
Chalk it up on the Producer spouting bs out of his ass. Obviously he was given outdated info by his team which the director and/or writers changed for the game. He's the executive Producer and story supervisor which at most means he makes sure the plot of the games remains sort of consistent. Just as you say the murals quite clearly protray all 4 Gods individually and all have their unique look. Plus, Bhunivelze has zero reasons to be involved in the murals about Etro and Lindzei's creation of mankind, seeing as he was already taking his big nap in the starry heavens by that point.--18.104.22.168 03:26, February 12, 2015 (UTC)
Lindzei gender[edit source]
I know Lindzei is a 'he' in Lightning Returns, but in the original Japanese and the other games, Lindzei's gender is ambiguous. Isn't there some way we can keep it that way? --Crystal Tear (talk) 08:13, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
Lindzei is yang[edit source]
isn't Lindzei the symbol of yang and pulse the symbol of yin? why is it not mentioned? it is obviously yang, when Bhunavelze uses it as a weapon it clearly symbolizes yang, and Pulse yin, well Bhunavelze itself also symbolizes yin and yang, with it's masculine black and feminine white forms.
Lindzei is yang, that must be mentioned in the wikia it's very relevant.
Gender 2[edit source]
In the interview with Kitase, he says the mural in Lightning Returns depicts the "Gods and Goddesses" of their world. He didn't say "Gods and the Goddess" but rather the plural form of the latter. Does this confirm that Lindzei is actually female since Lindzei is the only other God depicted as both female and male but female more times than not? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:42, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
- Was said interview an English one? Because you might not be able to tell in Japanese since they don't have a specifically plural word for goddesses (that I know of). Furthermore, "gods and goddesses" still makes sense if there is a single goddess among the group. The singular is "god or goddess", the plural is "gods and goddesses". JBed (talk) 19:49, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
The translator was British, the interview is on the page in the references section at the bottom. But you do make a good poin, I also forgot that Mwynn existed so he could have been referring to her anyway. I personally think Lindzei is suppose to be female or rather depicted to be very feminine but I concede my argument. I don't have anything else left to add or say to prove anything. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:58, March 25, 2016 (UTC)