Talk: Limit (Final Fantasy VII)

Source Conflict

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		Likeacupcake - Never are we more free, than when we are confined to the realm of dreams. TALK - 00:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
		As per Bluer's suggestion, let's do this properly. Firstly, may I ask why you insist your values are correct, when you refuse to provide a source? Secondly, why do you also insist that Cait Sith's values be removed?

		Keltainentoukokuu - OH YEAH AWESOME TALK - Keltainentoukokuu 01:06, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
		My experience is that the Steve/TFergusson stats are correct, for how many more kills it takes for Cloud to learn Meteorain than for the other characters to learn their LV3 limits. TFergusson's guide says that the values are from the game data, however, if you count the kills one by one it might not come to the exact number. The exact reason for this is unknown, but probably down to the game not calculating the kills perfectly correctly for whatever reason. Still, as it is the closest we have, and the actual number may vary from game to game, these values are what we should go by.

Videos all wiped out.

The user or users who hosted all the FF7 Limit videos used in the archives has removed them. All of them. Rather than trying to find replacements, I think it might be a better idea to simply condense it all into a single archive where all characters' Limits are shown in compilation videos. Looking around YouTube, I'm finding that route more promising than having a separate video for each attack. Thoughts on this? Bluestarultor ^BSA 16:27, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't like videos at all.

But if we must, they should go on a page called "Limit (Final Fantasy VII)/Videos" -- and each character has all their Limit Breaks displayed in one video. An exception can be made for Cait Sith, where it's unnecessary to go through every summon. Also, this means we should delete [[Cloud Strife/Limit Break Videos]], [[Barret Wallace/Limit Break Videos]] -- to condense them into one article.

These videos have to be uploaded to the wiki, and not sourced from YouTube. Unless the YouTube source is the FFWiki's own YouTube channel. 88.108.114.103 21:41, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it might be nicer to upload them to the wiki from this point forward given that we've clearly made a mistake assuming we could forever rely on the kindness of others. But the issue is that we need to find or make more first. It seems we'd been relying on a single user and so pretty much everything is gone, and we have no replacements. What we need is someone with FF7 on the PC who would be willing to record them all again.

There are several videos that show limit breaks for multiple characters, but I'd need to look to see if there were any for single characters. Something for me to work on, I guess. Bluestarultor ^BSA 05:13, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

UPDATE: Yeah, we need to get someone to do new videos. There aren't videos for some characters and the ones I found... could be better, to be honest. I have them linked at the bottom of my user page under my notes to self. Bluestarultor ^BSA 05:31, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wait... If you played the piano in Cloud's flashback on Disc 1, you CANT get the Final Heaven Manual, instead you'll get a gil? Anyone please answer...

You can get Final Heaven as long as you play the song correctly, doesn't mater if you played it in the flashback or not. The flashback tells you the right thing to play though.Keltainentoukokuu 16:31, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Caps

Any particular reason why so many TERMS on this page are in caps? DoreikuKuroofangu - Visit the Soul Shrine! 03:23, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

How they are spelled in the game I suppose.Keltainentoukokuu 03:33, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

So I see by the screenshots, but the game quotes suggest otherwise. Hmm....time to pop in my FF7 disk I guess. DoreikuKuroofangu - Visit the Soul Shrine! 03:39, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Well from a brief glance through the menu, "Limit" and "Limit level" are spelled like that while in the Limit menu LEVEL is spelled like that. I think this is a case of WEAPON/Weapon, it's a bit inconsistent and likely just a stylistic choice for in-battle usage. DoreikuKuroofangu - Visit the Soul Shrine! 03:44, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

AC Great Gospel

"Aerith also uses "Great Gospel" from the Lifestream to cure Geostigma victims."

Really? I thought it was just the water from the lifestream, although I could be wrong... Can anyone confirm this? Tidus357 11:41, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

		Neo Bahamut - "SIT DOWN & DRINK YOUR GODDAMN TEA!" TALK - {{{time}}}
		It's both. It was stated in an interview with Nomura that Aerith uses Great Gospel. One would hope that was already linked to on the page. Otherwise, it could be difficult to find. The only one that's kind of an asspull is Kadaj, but I don't care enough to do anything about it.

Catastrophe

		Tia-Lewise - Tread lightly, she is near, under the snow. Speak gently, she can hear the daisies grow TALK - Summoner of Nyan 18:46, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
		This article states that it is possible to miss Catastrophe. The Bone Village article states that the means to acquire the manual through digging was considered but is not possible in the final game, possibly because the manual is an item that cannot be missed. Now, I'm fairly sure I've screwed up and crashed the train into Corel, and that made me miss the manual, but my eleven years of playing this game cannot always be remembered. Can anyone verify which article states the correct information and alter appropriately?

		Catuse says at 19:03, July 15, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		It is possible to miss Catastrophe, and it is not possible to dig it up at Bone Village, according to two GameFAQs pages that have never been wrong before (one about items than can be missed, not counting Bone Village; the other about Bone Village.

In the texts of Bone Village there is a "Received "Catastophe"!" text however it is never referred to in the scripting (nor is the item ID) and thus not used. 79.69.195.29 21:39, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

FF Brigade

Should the Brigade info and images go on this page? The info can be found here, and the images should be on the respective character pages. --Shockstorm (talk) 20:33, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think yes, with the Other appearances.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 22:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Other Means of Leveling Limits

Just thought of this, it's mostly useless, meaning that regardless if it is or isn't true/possible etc it doesn't really affect anything in the long run. Anywho, on to the question:
1.) Does using Aerith's Fury Brand to induce limit breaks count towards total limit usage. ex: Braver, Fury Brand, Braver again. Does that count towards total usage towards Cross-Slash (pretending you have Fury brand but not Cross-Slash. LOL.)
2.) Does using Mime to repeat a limit break count towards the total usage? ex. Braver, Mime, Braver. (If you don't have Cross-Slash by the time you get Mime, you probably have Meteorain. LOL.)
Yoboom21 (talk) 10:11, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, No. Fury Brand is mentioned in the article as an easy way to level up Limit Breaks. 92.24.164.213 18:19, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought so, but I just wanted to know specifics. I can't very well claim to be the most knowledgable FF7Fan of all of ever if I don't know the little details. :D. Still plenty more to learn. I'm still trying to get all the achievements for ff7 2012, and that requires barrett lmt 4 and tifa lmt 4 and gil max. lol. Yoboom21 (talk) 01:20, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Legacy section

So before there were two sections, "Other appearances" and "Legacy". Like so. I want it back that way (and I could just do it because it's reverting to the original revision but I'll start a discussion first).

Neither of these sections would be mandatory for the page.

And both sections are very different. "Other appearances" are times when the same characters use the same Limit Break. AC doesn't get a page for its LBs because it's not gameplay. Similarly, mentioning Gallian beast and Chaos here makes sense because we cover Gallian Beast and Chaos in VII here, and it's another representation of the same ability by the same character. It is quite relevant.

But Tifa using Final Heaven elsewhere is very different from someone else using an ability inspired by it. This is why they had different sections. Mixing them together is not necessary when there is a clear distinction, and takes away from the reading experience. There is a section for other appearances that explains where characters use their abilities outside their game; then there is a section for allusions where abilities based on VII LBs are used by other characters.

You would be right to say "Legacy" isn't a thing elsewhere. Logically. Few other articles covers this many abilities from a single title, and LBs are far more likely to be reused since their bound to a specific character. If other single-game-focused articles bothered to mention this kind of thing they would do in Trivia points. But VII has enough to do more than that.

I feel fairly strongly about this. JBed (talk) 08:33, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't feel strongly either way but I wonder if the distinction would be so obvious to readers. "Other appearances" is the familiar way of organisation.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:51, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

This page is about the Limit Breaks, not the characters. It's about the Limit Break system in FFVII. Just because a different character uses the same ability doesn't mean it's not a different appearance like any other.

There is actually no difference between Zell using a Tifa LB and Tifa using one in Dissidia, except at a stretch the EX Burst. Other than that, they are so compltely different from the original in both cases that honestly it's nothing different than just the character.

The distinction should be made within the headers, instead of using a useless new Legacy header that is never mentioned on MoS and unfamiliar; no obligation to follow strict MoS rules is not an excuse to go against the reason they were created in the first place: consistency.

I see this page like Blitz (Final Fantasy VI). That too, in my opinion, needs a Final Fantasy VII section for Tifa's use of Meteor Strike. In fact, I should add it. Because it's Blitz abilities being used. Just because it isn't Sabin using the Blitz abilities does not mean it isn't a Blitz.

I also strongly object to how the original page worked. It grouped FF and non-FF under the same header; Non FF Appearances was used twice. It put FFXIV there twice. No FFVII character appears in FFXIV, by this logic, that doesn't belong in Other appearances either.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 13:11, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Techno on this. When I was reading through the old system for the sake of this discussion, my reaction was mostly one of confusion for why the sections were separate. Even knowing the reason for that (a reason not apparent in the article), I still support keeping the article the way it is now. Jimcloud 14:03, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

That's one perspective you could have, but I can't agree at all. This page is about the Limit Breaks in VII, and when these characters appear again they use the same ability. When these abilities are used by other characters they are not using the same ability, they are using an ability based on the original. We're talking about other appearances vs. allusions. Entirely different.

The MoS does not cover this scenario, and as I said: this stuff would otherwise go in Trivia.

There is a reason why we use h4s in parents. It is because a chocobo in Crisis Core is going to be closely related to a chocobo in FFVII: they're in the same universe, and they're therefore the exact same creature. Chocobo (Final Fantasy VII) has an "Other appearances" section and unsurprisingly it doesn't include anything that isn't obviously a VII chocobo. But why?

Let's be clearer: An "other appearance" is a Limit Break used by the character outside of FFVII. A "legacy appearance" is something in another game alluding to a Limit Break originating in VII. So if Meteor Strike were to appear in another game by not-Tifa, that would not be mentioned here. Legacy was never covering "other appearances", it was covering allusions of things originating in VII. JBed (talk) 16:23, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Just because it's about the Limit Breaks specific to this game does not mean the characters come into the equation. The page is about the Limit command ability used in Final Fantasy VII. If we are going by the logic of "the Limit Breaks in VII", then every Other Appearance is a "Legacy" appearance because none of them use the Limit command. At, again, an absolute stretch, the EX Bursts of Cloud and Tifa, but that's still a different ability entirely. In the Advent Children, no one ever uses a "Limit" ability, their actions just happen to resemble Limits. This means that Zell's use of Dolphin Blow is more like another appearance because "Limit Break" was the command entered before he pulled the attack off.

Also per Jimcloud, the fact that the section headers are confusing to other people is evident by the fact that the old page was full of errors and a total mess. To quote myself above: It grouped FF and non-FF under the same header; Non FF Appearances was used twice. It put FFXIV there twice. No FFVII character appears in FFXIV, by this logic, that doesn't belong in Other appearances either.

The Chocobo page? That's a page about a recurring creature, and about that recurring creature specific to its appearance in FFVII. This is about a recurring ability - LB - and its specific appearance in this game. But its specific appearance involves specific abilities that were used in other games. That's what's being referred to here.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 16:51, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

After reading JBed's points and mulling it over, I realize that what the article should have (and what was originally, but weirdly, intended) is a section for other appearances where the limits of Final Fantasy VII used by those characters appear in other games, and an Allusions section where the names or animations of abilities used in other games are similar in nature to the Limits used in Final Fantasy VII. Splitting them in that regard is something I would be okay with. Jimcloud 17:08, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't even really oppose an Allusions section that strongly. I oppose the original page, but Allusions would be a compromise I'd be comfortable with. I still just feel like even that's pointless because every use of FFVII Limit Breaks are allusions anyway because none of them required the use of the Limit command ability, it's why this page is titled "Limit (Final Fantasy VII)" and not "Limit Breaks in Final Fantasy VII" or something.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 17:12, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Number of Kills required

It is made clear in the earlier part of the page that you do not need to learn both limits of a lvl before learning level 1 of the next limit level, (you do not need both blade beam and climhazard to learn metoerain for example) but further down where each limit is looked at in detail, taking Clouds limits as the example again it is stated;

Meteorain - Kill 200 enemies on Level 2

Each of the characters has their limits explained like this, it may just be me, but that does read as though the kills have to come while you are set to limit level 2 which is not true as the page makes clear earlier on, and actually in my last play through Cloud learned meteorain before he even learned cross slash (Barret did a lot of tanking, Cloud did a lot of killing).

Would it be acceptable to simply remove the text saying "on level x" so it simply states number of enemy kills needed, I don't want to do this unilaterally, and also I do not know what impact it would have on the formatting of the info boxes themselves.176.250.18.156 18:29, July 2, 2015 (UTC)

I believe the implication was meant to be that you need that many kills after learning the first Level 2 Limit Break, so readers know whether the value is cumulative or not. Although you're right that it doesn't read that way. It might be just as easy to change it to "Kill a total of X enemies". Uh, maybe it should be "Kill a total of X enemies with Y." *shrugs* JBed (talk) 18:54, July 2, 2015 (UTC)

You may be right about how it was intended and perhaps it is my reading comprehension, I just think simply having it say kill x enemies would be a lot clearer, I'm not sure what you mean by Y when you say 'maybe it should be "Kill a total of X enemies with Y."' Unless you mean the character themselves are Y, in which case I don't think that would be needed since the page is broken down into each characters limits. The page has been around a while though and nobody seems to have had any problems so perhaps a case of if it is not broke then don't fix it176.250.18.156 18:35, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess no need to specify the character.

I've made amendments so it says for L2-1 "Kill x enemies", and for L3-1 "Kill x enemies after obtaining L2-1". I don't think can be misinterpreted. JBed (talk) 18:51, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

Images

		Xenomic TALK - 07:10, April 29, 2016 (UTC)
		So I'm kinda fine with the old images here for this page. However, for the ability pages, such as what I did on Breath of the Earth and Fury Brand, perhaps we should go with newer images?? And how to handle some of these, such as Fury Brand (where I have 2 images showing it, one at the start and one during the main part)?

		Xenomic TALK - 23:30, April 29, 2016 (UTC)
		Bringing this up already since I'm about to upload another one for Aerith, this one being Planet Protector...

		Xenomic TALK - 23:58, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
		Still need an answer to this. I can already go and get everyone's Limits easily, since I have access to the best place for getting Limits, but yeah. Also, for the images used in the tables on this page, do we still want to use those particular images? Or would we want to use the ones re-uploaded on the ability pages (either as they are or cropped)?

Clarity for Tifa's section

Does "dealing 1¹⁄₄ times normal damage" and etc. refer to when the slot lands on "Hit" or "Yeah!"?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 19:20, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Both. "Hit"s are normal hits, "Yeah!"s are critical hits. In FFVII, critical hit means double damage.

To clarify, a normal Attack physical has a power of 16. Tifa's Limit Breaks have powers of 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 42.

(also her limit breaks are considered long range) JBed (talk) 19:25, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Thought so. So does "dealing 1¹⁄₄ times normal damage (doubled with "Yeah!")" work on the page?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 19:41, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

I think that makes it sound more complicated than it is. Crit% is 0 with Hit and 255% with Yeah!. Beat Rush deals 1.25x a normal attack, so critical Beat Rush deals 1.25x a critical hit normal attack. I think that's made clear in the section's intro (although it didn't mention that they were critical hits until just now). JBed (talk) 20:31, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Looks good.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:57, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Individual Limit ability pages

Moving the conversation here...

I'm debating on whether we should make individual pages for the Limit abilities, and think that at the very least we should for the characters' ultimate Limits. Though it was mentioned that the info already exists in recurring pages such as Cosmo Memory (ability), I don't think these are sufficient. In my view, they're basically glorified disambigs, and they work great for providing series overviews or for getting people where they need to go, but should not be a substitute for info to a specific page. I'm also pretty iffy about "Other appearances" sections too, to be honest, and think we should drastically cut down on those sections aside from stuff like Ultima Weapon (Final Fantasy VII), so if we did make these, I'd rather they just link back to a recurring page rather than move content to an "Other appearances" section on the page.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how much can reasonably be written about these, or if there'll be as much content as, say, the individual spell pages like Fire (Final Fantasy VII ability). Any thoughts before I start making these pages?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 03:22, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

You could describe the animation, and put a video if we have them or just use something already on YouTube. You could put damage mechanics, how many kills/uses of previous Limits are needed to learn it, and then if there are any specifically good situations where to try use it, or if the Limit is not very good then...say it's not really worth using.

Each of Vincent's forms could have an explanation a little bit on how they all refer to horror/slasher movie tropes (Galian Beast and Chaos (Final Fantasy VII) already have articles but they have some lore significance).

Something like Cid's Limits are pretty straightforward though, not so much to say about them.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 11:52, March 30, 2020 (UTC)