Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "Hidden (element)". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

I personally don't know who's the idiot behind erasing the Japanese term for this Hidden element. said "(for the same reason i removed it from the Hidden page: doubt it's named in-game and don't know the Jap source)"

everyone read what this idiot said and i repeat, "doubt it's named in-game and don't know the Jap source"

in both Jap and Eng Version of FFVII it wasn't named in-game. That's the reasons why some of the English speaking fans named it Hidden. While on the other hand SQUARE officially announced that it was called "10番目の属性".

To the idiot go ask Square-enix both US and Japan before doing some unnecessary conclusions like what you just did. 14:14, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

I believe that IP is JBed. JBed is a form of entity, acting on its own: he's like FFWiki's form of a fal'Cie. :) —Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 14:17, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't jump to conclusions. But we didn't (and still don't) have a source for the Japanese name. But thanks for the insults, it's always appreciated. 15:11, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
"HATERS GONNA HATE" ;P —Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 15:39, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
I felt sorry for the one who contributed about the 10th Element or Attribute a.k.a Hidden. His contribution was altered because of ignorance without any proper researching by a "fal'Cie". I guess he wasn't the only victim of this "fal'Cie". 14:31, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
The contribution was removed because they gave a name that was not supported by the game, and supplied no source. Said user, or indeed any user, can supply a source right now and the addition can be made to the page once more, while also stating where the name comes from and adding Ref info.
It is not my job to verify information, but to remove information that is not verified. It makes sense for the person who adds the info to add the source since they know the source. Otherwise I could spend ages flicking through guide books when something is actually just BS. In any case, I did skim through the VII Ultimania Omega sections I suspected it might be in and didn't notice anything, so that's as far as I go. 14:53, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Does your parents taught you that it is good to lie? You said, "I did skim through the VII Ultimania Omega sections I suspected it might be in and didn't notice anything, so that's as far as I go.". Well Ultimania Omega did wrote something about the 10th Element. You don't have to pretend what you did or does without actually doing such a thing. I wonder if your job is to remove information that is not verified. Should it better to really search whether that information is valid or not? What's the use of this sentence every time I go into this page, "The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research"? If this site doesn't care about researching well better to close this page. I wasn't insulting I was more like encouraging you to wake-up from being apathetic. It was very easy to have information from Square-enix about Final Fantasy stuffs from the internet. If you don't like Final Fantasy itself better not to waste your time here rather than defeating the purpose of why Wikia exist. If you're open-minded or you're a person that would be hurt and misjudge my comment as an insult, it is up to you. 01:11, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Oi, be civil. If you think attacking a well respected user or the wiki itself will get us to believe you, you have another thing coming. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 01:25, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
...I doubt his parents taught him that it's good to lie, it's better to not have the information at all than have information that may be garbage and may not be. C A T U S E 01:32, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Do you know what civil means? Don't make your own definition of civil. I wasn't attacking a well respected user or the wiki itself. You accused it to yourself. That idea wasn't from me to begin with. I was saying that you need to be sure of what you type in here, as I said if you put my words negatively the problem is not within me but within you people who don't do the best that you can in providing easy information about Final Fantasy. The only thing your showing to us is that you're being one sided, Final Fantasy Games are not originate from the States, it is originally from Japan. You need also to be careful in editing and commenting such information like this for example, "doubt it's named in-game and don't know the Jap source". It is very well sounds unpleasant, the reason I came up with the word "idiot" is simply because the person acts in a self-defeating or significantly in counterproductive way. Now I don't know if that person is aware, the person also claim that he read the Ultimania Omega and found nothing about the said thing. Which I believe it shows that he is not that respectable. So think use your head not your emotions, feelings does fluctuate you civilize persons should know that. To you the one who thinks a truthful information is such a garbage then have a request to close this page. When does the information about the 10th Element or better know as Hidden Element is nothing but a garbage? If that's what you believe then better remove this page about Hidden or better remove the Final Fantasy VII page or the best option you have is to close the whole Final Fantasy Wikia page, if that's what you stand and believe. 02:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Civil, adj. 1. Having to do with people and government office as opposed to the military or religion. 2. Behaving in a reasonable or polite manner. You accused JBed of lying and being apathetic to this issue, and then you said he is defeating the purpose as of why this wiki exists, which is just flat out wrong. And this was all because he said he could not find proof of your claim. And now that I have called you out on it, you are attempting to attack my knowledge and claim something that you did, on this very page, did not happen. You are being neither reasonable or polite, hence you are being uncivil. I have contacted a user who I believe will know whether or not you are actually correct, with any luck he will sort this out for us. Now cut it out. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 02:25, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Why in god's name would we close the whole wiki (not Wikia, Wikia is not a common noun even though everyone thinks it is) because of a single page?
And JBed already explained why it may be garbage, Hidden is usually thought of as a fan-term probably thought up by TFergusson at GameFAQs (more often known as Terence) in one of his Mechanics FAQ pages. Unless the fan-term has an official Japanese equivalent, we should not give a Japanese equivalent.
Of course, if somebody can find an official Japanese equivalent of Hidden, we should use that and probably rename this page to whatever the literal translation of that is.
Oh, and the "fal'Cie" thing was a bit of a stretched metaphor. C A T U S E 02:32, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
You should know that he's the offensive side to start with I was just in the defense look what he said at the beginning "for the same reason i removed it from the Hidden page: doubt it's named in-game and don't know the Jap source" then next "In any case, I did skim through the VII Ultimania Omega sections I suspected it might be in and didn't notice anything, so that's as far as I go." If you conclude that correcting people for their mistake is a crime then I believe that you're the type of people who hates education. Look I didn't accuse him lying, he showed himself that he is lying. His being apathetic is the byproduct of his reactions on what I commented about what he said. Now about attempting to attack your knowledge, have you ever have a knowledge of what you have type here? You said, "And now that I have called you out on it, you are attempting to attack my knowledge and claim something that you did, on this very page, did not happen." I'm not here to attack as you can see. You are just being pessimistic and that not came out from me to begin with. It is your problem and don't blame me for it. 02:39, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
"Of course, if somebody can find an official Japanese equivalent of Hidden, we should use that and probably rename this page to whatever the literal translation of that is." Answer: there is and the person claim that he read it and found nothing about it. I also read it from cover to cover and how come I read something about it? 02:47, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
...I never "concluded that correcting people for their mistake is a crime", I just want to make sure that the page has the facts straight -- and so does the original guy, Kaimi, and Some Color Mage. Seriously, chill, this is just the Internet, and you seem to have gotten worked up enough that you're not really making any sense at this point :|
EDIT CONFLICT x2 Kitty no want conflict ;_;; Kitty just want post response: We have two different people with two different stories. One says he found it in the book, the other didn't. Wait until somebody else who has a copy of the Ultimania responds and can clarify this for us. C A T U S E 02:50, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
That's the proper respond that I'm looking for. It's only got complicated when they respond my comment negatively. 02:54, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Oh Just to add up if anyone of you who does really have the ultimania omega and really know not just to read but can very well understood Japanese Language "literally" here's the quick reference of the 10th Element. Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega, Page 472. 03:02, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

We really do appreciate your contributions but it was not a good idea to start with calling people idiots, everybody's bound to be on the defensive then. We should have a person here who has all the Ultimanias and who can also understand Japanese, and maybe JBed can look again with the page number as well. If any info is added to an article that is not from the game itself, then it would be ideal to say exactly where it was obtained. I didn't look if you did that, just saying here generally. Anonymous contributors' additions are screened with a tougher eye, I'm sure you can understand why...Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 03:09, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I've already contacted Esprit, now that we have the page number, it should be easy for him to check. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 03:11, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I checked the Ultimania Omega and found the entry about the 10th Element in the Secrets section (before the post giving the page number was posted, of course. Would have saved me a few minutes, heh) and yes, the '10番目の属性" is what they call it there, repeatedly. This would translate exactly as 10th Element. There's really no room for guessing about the English equivalent, since 10番目 is simply "10th" and 属性 is the term translated as "element" throughout the FF series. Also, it seems Carry Armor's Lapis Laser is also 10th-elemental (that sounds cool), which would be useful knowledge considering how annoying that boss is for many players, especially on LLG. Nullifying Ultima Beam is interesting, but nullifying Lapis Laser would be a godsend to alot of people! Espritduo (talk) 03:20, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

That means we can rename the article? Thanks Espritduo you're the best.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 03:23, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose we should rename it to "10th Element", as we have no official English term, making that the best translation. Unless anyone has any big objections? -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 03:28, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
To Keltainentoukokuu and Espiritduothanks for the respond. 03:24, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Also, I should note that, if I am reading this right, the 10th Element only exists in the original Japanese version of the game. It was taken out for the International version (and I assume for the English version). Is this right? Anonymous guy with the Ultimania Omega wanna confirm this? Espritduo (talk) 03:38, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
It's not mentioned in English but it's definitely there; I've nullified Ultima Beam in the past in English. TFergusson says that Ultima Beam is Hidden while Lapis Laser is not, so I'll have to try that, or ask anyone with a save near Carry Armor to do so. C A T U S E 03:46, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
From what I can comprehend from what we read I have almost the same understanding, it is more like this 10th Element only exists from the original Japanese Version of FFVII, which from what I understand is that it doesn't exists outside FFVII and pass through the English, PAL, International Version of the game(even PC version.) 04:02, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Then Ultimania was wrong. Maybe Squeenix meant to remove it from the English version but forgot to remove it from Ultima Beam and certain Materia such as Protect. C A T U S E 04:06, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't that mean 10th and Hidden are different elements then? Because Hidden is known to exist in worldwide releases of the game, as two users have confirmed in their own testing, in addition to TFergusson's guide, which uses the PC version. But if 10th was removed after the original release, they can't be the same thing.
Either that or FFVII is keeping up it's somewhat glitchy reputation and it wasn't properly removed. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 04:08, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Well, the Ultimania doesn't say anything about where the English version stands (because Japanese people don't care about us!). It just says it was something in the original version that was removed for the International version. It lists about a dozen damage-based enemy attacks that use the Hidden-element, mostly beam, laser, and explosion type attacks. None of those attacks are listed on this page, and none of the attacks listed on this page are in the Ultimania, with the only attack in common being Ultima Beam. So, color me confused. Did they sort of half-way fix the hidden element between the original, English, and International? Espritduo (talk) 04:10, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Skimming the japanese wiki-verse, it does seem that this element was removed from the International release of the game. Of course, this means nothing to the English fanbase, since we have never seen a translated version of the International version. The PSX, PC, and the re-released versions are all pre-International. I can only guess what I said before -we got a sort of half-assed fix to the element. Espritduo (talk) 04:17, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Points up to Espritduo. There was before a lot of rush in releasing Final Fantasy VII in the US PlayStation. But with regards to the 10th Element or Hidden I pretty confident that it is the same. The only possible question for us left is the Shout Element whether that thing truly exist. I forgot where I read this information but the game has only 15 Elements and Ziedrich has protection 14 of them(15th is restorative). Yet mysteriously we have this 16th Element which also called Shout. 04:20, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
The Shout element exists, that's not a matter of question. It's been found in the code alongside the other "secret" elements. If you read the bit about 15 elements from a person who has the International version of the game, then yes, that would be correct, since Hidden was removed from that version, and the Ziedrich would thus protect agaist 14 elements with the 15th being Restorative. I have to ask, are you Japanese? Espritduo (talk) 04:28, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
To be honest, My father is pure Japanese and I'm a half-blooded Japanese and his illegitimate child. 04:35, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

OK so...I'm a bit confused now. They made the game with a hidden element that was an accident i.e. a glitch, but when they localized the game and when they ported it to PC the first time it remained in the code like bunch of other glitches did. Then they re-released FFVII in Japan with additional content and removed the element from it. ?? It's what we call Hidden and the Ultimania calls 10th Element? The only Hidden attack we have is Ultima Beam but the Ultimania lists bunch more, why?Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 13:40, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I said I skimmed the Ultimania, I didn't read it. I don't read Japanese. My point wasn't that it wasn't in there, but I put in some effort to check instead of removing outright: something that I am not required to do. But yes, I see it now.

Lapis Laser is not Hidden elemental in VIIPC, so we assume the same for PS. Hell Rider VR2's Elecrtomag is Hidden elemental. Just trust Terence's Enemy Mechanics guide. 15:24, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

It seems that in the original FFVII, there were a bunch of actual damaging attacks that were Hidden-elemental, but only Ultima Beam survived the first transition from original to English. By the time International was released in Japan, all abilities had the Hidden elemental removed from them. Now, this is just a guess, but I'm thinking the Ultimania is only listing the abilities that are 10th-elemental and do damage, and not bothering to list the non-damaging ones like we do here(and probably they were ignored like Ultima Beam during the first transition to English). It is really just a little blurb in the Secrets section afterall, and we shouldn't expect it to be *too* ridiculously in-depth on the game mechanics. The Ultimania is good, but it's no Terence when it comes to delving into game code quirks. I would echo JBed and say just trust Terence in this case. Although I would like to actually try out the Lapis Laser next time I play FFVII, just to see. Espritduo (talk) 19:25, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

By looking at the game data it isn't Hidden elemental in PC and Terence doesn't claim it to be in PS. 19:30, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I know what his game mechanics says on it, I'd just like to play with it for curiosity's sake. Never know, it might be a typo in the guide or something. I don't expect this to be the case, but hey, like I said, I'm curious.

Also, should we list the original attacks that were Hidden-element in a separate table, as listed in the Ultimania, and mention on this page that there were more attacks originally, but their attribute was changed? And of course, mention that the Hidden-element doesn't exist in the International version at all? Espritduo (talk) 19:35, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

But the game data.
I suspect the element still exists in International, they've just removed the elements from any attack so it would never be noticed, but I can't confirm that. Ruby Weapon also absorbs Hidden, they would have to have removed that too.
Yes, list Hidden elemental attacks from the Japanese original release. 19:43, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm gone for a few days and this is what I miss :3. Anyways, I bet sure this conversation looks odd to people who don't know Jbed's editing as an anon and actually has like 50k+ edits in total. But that's why I like this wiki - it's unique in lotsa ways. --Shockstorm (talk) 04:16, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Or maybe not, considering the second post says the guy with the 79.69.whatever IP is JBed. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 04:34, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
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