Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "Final Fantasy X auto-abilities". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

Hello FFWikia! Not only am I new to this wikia (although I've been a part of several others), but I'm also completely new to the whole FF series! So keep that in mind when I ask this next question ^_^; Is it supposed to say 'Command Abilities' or did whoever wrote that mean 'Common Abilities'? Or maybe I'm just confused ^_^; Jihiro 22:50, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Nah, it is Command Abilites. Command abilities activate when you select them as commands, as opposed to Auto Abilities, which don't. And welcome to the wiki! Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 22:53, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
Oh, duh! *Facepalms* And that, as they say, is that! Jihiro 23:16, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Where can I find more information on Customizing weapons and armor? Such as why 'Distill Ability' doesn't show up as an effect I can add even though I have the x2 Ability Spheres that is required? And all the others not showing up.. Jihiro 03:39, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

They only appear in the PAL and International version. Same with Ribbon. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 18:14, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Suggest to merge with "List of Equipment Customizations". I created that (very similar) page back in July and never got around to appending it to the FFX template. I just thought I'd mention that. The.DreadnoughT 02:34, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Usually? Mostly?[edit source]

Wakka got Tactician Overdrive Mode from giving a Zu Darkness with a custom Darkstrike Blackout weapon (Str +5% and DS added), and then twice in a row, failed to blind the next one. So Darkstrike is either bugged or does not blind 100%. VvAnarchangelvV 02:10, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There are Darkstrike and Darktouch, one works every time the other doesn't, I don't remember which is which. It's not wrong in this article is it?Keltainentoukokuu 02:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
You are correct that there is a lesser one, but Strike is supposed to be the better one. I daresay it IS better, but it still does not seem to be 100%. What I really need is a confirmation, which would eliminate the possibility that my game is bugged in some way. Failing that, I suppose we could just go ahead on the strength of my evidence. I don't mind either way. VvAnarchangelvV 01:51, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
Totally my bad, sorry. Zu has 95% resistance to Blind. So the only Strike bug here is that I did not strike my comment before making it. VvAnarchangelvV 02:35, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Remember that resistance to statuses in FFX is subtractive, not multiplicative. For example, if you have 100% chance of infliction and the enemy has 95% resistance, that leaves you with 5% chance. This much is logical regardless of how you arrive at that answer. The bit where it gets confusing is what would happen if you had, say, a 50% chance of infliction (by using Dark Touch rather than Darkstrike). The game does not work out (50% x 95%) and arrive at a 2.5% chance, but rather, it works out (50% - 95%) and thus arrives at -45%, which being under zero obviously means there is no chance of infliction.

Stacking abilities works similar. For example, if you had a weapon with both Darktouch and Dark Strike (you CAN do this, you just have to make sure you put Dark Touch on it before Dark Strike), the infliction chances are cumulative and thus become 150%. This can also combine with abilities - Dark Touch + Darkstrike using Dark Attack = 50% + 100% + 100%, or a 250% chance of infliction.

Note that some abilities are a special case, these are varyingly referred to as "always" or "perfect" infliction; they may also be referred to as having a "254% chance" of infliction as this is how it's rendered in the game data. These attacks bypass the resistance calculation, and simply always inflict the status unless the target is immune to it. Some examples of this are the Buster skills and the Bio spell. Enemy examples include almost any status effect a Dark Aeon tries to throw at you. (In fact, as I'm sure you know, some abilities take this a step further - "255% infliction" in the data - these don't even pay attention to immunity, they'll inflict no matter what. There's several enemy examples of this, the most well known being Shinryu's Eraser, but only one example of it being available to your party - Zanmato.) In the case of a 254% or 255% ability stacking together with other infliction chances (say, using Dark Buster when you have Darktouch equipped), it just stays at 254% (or 255% if that's what the attack was).

Durations, on the other hand, are not cumulative, but "highest wins". I don't remember how many turns Darkstrike actually inflicts Darkness for, but we'll assume its' 3 for the point of explaining this example. Dark Buster usually inflicts Darkness, 254% chance (so always, unless target is immune) for 1 turn. Darkstrike inflicts Darkness, 100% chance (so subject to normal resistance formula) for 3 turns. The result of such a combination would be inflicting Darkness with a 254% infliction rate for 3 turns; not 4 turns.

It's worth noting that only some statuses - and if I'm not mistaken, all such statuses are negative (but doesn't cover *all* negative statuses) - follow the resistance formula at all; albeit the common ones being the ones that do follow it. Positive statuses, and some rarer negative statuses (most notably Curse), are "all or nothing". That is, any given attack either always inflicts it (unless blocked by immunity) or never does, and any given target is either completely immune to it or has no resistance to it whatsoever. Similarly, immunity-bypassing attacks for these statuses cannot exist.

HayanNinja (talk) 03:50, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

Adding column[edit source]

Bearing mind the table looks like this on Oasis:

Auto Ability Description Value Customize Requirement
Sensor   "View enemy data during battle."
Reveals target's current and maximum HP, elemental characteristics and status effects
200 2x Ability Sphere
Piercing   "Deal normal damage to armored enemies."
Attacks and Skills can Inflict full damage on Armored enemies
0 1x Lv. 2 Key Sphere
First Strike   "Act first at beginning of battle."
Guarantees the first turn during battle even in an ambush
6000 1x Return Sphere

How would you suggest I add a column for enemies that drop weapons/armor with the auto abilities? 22:44, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Auto Ability Description Value Customize Requirement Dropped By
Sensor   "View enemy data during battle."
Reveals target's current and maximum HP, elemental characteristics and status effects
200 2x Ability Sphere Zuu

Hmmm....just using this as an example,b ut I don't know if that would work or not... it is pretty wide but alas, not much to do about that if that's the case... Xenomic 22:52, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea. Could also add the drop chance percentage in brackets?Keltainentoukokuu 00:47, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

The drop chances of abilities is a VERY complicated matter. I was about to add info to this talk page about how it works, gimme a few mins. HayanNinja (talk) 03:51, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

Combining?[edit source]

This just lists the support abilities from FFX. Maybe renaming it Final Fantasy X Auto Abilities would be better, as there are also Final Fantasy VIII support abilities, Final Fantasy IX abilities and Final Fantasy XIII passive abilities.Keltainentoukokuu 02:59, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that would probably work better that way, just to keep it in line with the other articles. Though not sure how much that would force links to be fixed, but if you think that's the way it should be, then go for it and change it. Still not sure on the whole making an entire page for Auto-Abilities now, mainly because of this page...hmmm....dunno! Xenomic 03:05, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Value[edit source]

What does the value column mean? How much gil it adds to a weapon or armor that has this ability? Oni Dark Link 16:16, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

That's right. When you sell it what you get for it is the combination of abilities and empty slots on it.Keltainentoukokuu 16:24, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
An explanation/the calculation should be put on the page. :) 19:27, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
I can't see it being as simple as adding them up. From memory, equipment with four free ability slots are worth 25,000 gil, yet the price (usually) falls once you start filling the slots with auto-abilities. For example, add Break HP Limit to one of those slots and the sell price nose-dives considerably. Jeppo (Talk | contribs)
It makes perfect sense since you're decreasing a weapon's gigantic versatility and/or potential. It is also possible to make a weapon be worth a lot more. - Henryacores^ 19:57, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I see the reasons why the price falls, all I'm saying is that it isn't going to be simple addition. In fact I think the equation is going to be pretty big and complicated. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 20:06, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Now I'm even more confused as to what the value number is meant to mean. The "Value" of Break HP Limit according to this page is 0 Oni Dark Link 20:57, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Probably so that the player doesn't do something stupid, like sell it. Jeppo (Talk | contribs)

Could it me that Blank Slots also have a value so when you customize something onto it the price would fall (a lot in the case of break HP since that has a value of 0) since your replacing the blank slot with a less valuable ability? Oni Dark Link 21:02, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

It would, but it isn't additive. I think one free slot equals 18, three equals six-thousand-and-something, and four equals 25,000. It could be multiplicative, or something that involves multiplication, or it could be that free slots involve completely different rules entirely. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 21:08, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not really sure how to write to a talk page. Hope this works.
The values listed aren't actually right/useful in their current form. Most of what is in the table seems to be half the actual ability value from what I have determined. Hard to say how it has been established.
The value of an equipment is determined by the formula:
(100 + the sum of the ability values) * slots factor * empty slots factor
Where the slots factor is 1, 1.5, 3, or 5, depending on the number of total slots. The empty slots factor uses the same progression, except the last value is 400.
So an empty 4 slot equipment is (100 + 0) * 5 * 400 = 200000.Purchase price is some multiple of this total price (post-airship that's usually 1/2, floored). Sale price is 1/8th the total equipment value.
I have this all in a high degree of confidence, though the 8 factor is a little arbitrary. It might be the 100 constant in the formula is a 50, and the ability values are half what I have (so the table here is usually close). Then the sale price is only 1/4th the total value. Not sure there's evidence to choose one over the other, but the 8 factor provides higher resolution in a context where no decimal numbers are used, so I expect that.
Either way,
(50 + the sum of the ability values) * slots factor * empty slots factor
might be the better to give here, as it's most in line with the currently listed values.
(XCompWiz (talk) 10:48, April 21, 2018 (UTC))
Great info, thanks for adding!Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 13:50, April 21, 2018 (UTC)

Curse Ward[edit source]

I mentioned Curse Ward, an unobtainable ability that exists in the data, in my recent edit. If anyone's wondering WHY it works exactly the same as Curseproof; the reason for this is that unlike the majority of statuses which have infliction chances, resistance amounts, etc, Curse operates - much like most of the positive statuses - on a basis of "either you're immune or you're not", "either an attack inflicts it or it doesn't", etc. There is no inbetweens with Curse. Presumably, due to an entry for Curse Ward existing, originally the game was not like this but Curse functioned like the other negative statuses. But this is why Curse Ward and Curseproof function the same in the final release, and no amount of hacking the game can change this (at least, not by simply modifying the data of the auto-abilities like could be done to, say, add Ribbon to the NA version - I released a cheat device code to do that, but no such thing could be done to make a Curse Ward that functions as you'd expect). HayanNinja (talk) 09:12, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. This would be useful for the Curse (status) article. :)Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 14:53, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Equipment Drop Mechanisms[edit source]

Determining the equipment drop from an enemy is complicated. Some parts of it are still not fully understood. The first factor is whether or not the enemy will even drop equipment at all.

Each enemy (assuming it can drop equipment, which most enemies can) has a fixed chance of a drop - this is not affected by overkill, who kills it, or any other factor. This chance can range from 3%(NA)/4%(PAL/Int/HD) for common randoms, up to 100% for most bosses. However, even those known to have a 100% drop chance have occasionally been seen to not drop equipment. The best guess as to why this is happening is that it works similarly to attacks with 100% status infliction (important to differentiate this from 254%, or "always", infliction); the actual chance ends up being 99%ish for unknown reasons, possibly technicalities with the RNG. I'm not entirely sure if it's the same mechanism at work here, and I'm not sure what the exact reason is for it with statuses, but regardless of the reasons, with status effects it is a very well-known phenomonon that has been known for a very long time.

If a drop is given, determining whether it's a weapon or armor is a simple matter of being 50/50.

Who it's for is a bit more complicated. No one has been able to work out from hacking the game data how this is determined, so we have had to fall back on analyzing large numbers of trials, and thus this may not be perfectly accurate. However, it appears that whoever strikes the killing blow on an enemy has about a 40% chance of receiving the drop, with the remainder divided equally between the remaining characters. Poison damage and similar don't favor any specific character (just split even between all 7), while aeon kills give the higher chance to Tidus.

The number of slots in the equipment is set by the enemy. They will have a range of slot counts they can drop, and the spread will not always be even - for a few examples:

  • Dark Valefor - Can drop 3 or 4 slots, the chance is 25/75.
  • Ultima Buster - Can drop 3 or 4 slots, the chance is 50/50.
  • Shinryu - Can drop 2, 3 or 4 slots, the chance is 25/50/25.
  • Penance - Always drops 4 slots, never any other amount.

However, while the spread of slots varies from enemy to enemy, there is no other factor to it. Like with the chance of the equipment drop itself, overkill etc have no impact.

Once this is determined, the first thing that is checked is whether the enemy has any abilities that are *always* present on its eqiupment drops. Almost all random encounter enemies (the only exception I know of off the top of my head is Bat Eye) have Piercing as a fixed ability for Kimahri and Auron, while almost all monster arena creations have at least one fixed ability each for both weapons and armor. Other cases of fixed abilities also exist.

If such an ability does exist, it is added to the weapon before the remaining abilities are rolled. It is NOT counted as a roll.

Finally, the random abilities are rolled. Just like with the number of slots, each enemy has a spread (with various chances) of how many ability rolls are performed. This generally, but not always, corresponds to how many actual abilities end up on the final product. It may be more than the number of slots the equipment actually has, indeed, some enemies will always have more than 4 rolls.

Some examples:

  • Dark Valefor - Always performs 2 rolls.
  • Ultima Buster - Five (25%) or six (75%) rolls.
  • Shinryu - Always performs 1 roll.
  • Abaddon - Always peforms 7(!!) rolls.
  • Ornitholestes - One (90%) or two (10%) rolls.

There is NO fixed number of free slots an equipment will or won't have, it's solely determined on the number (and outcomes) of rolls.

Once the number of rolls has been determined, the rolls are performed. Each enemy can be seen as having 7 slots of potential abilities (with seperate sets for weapons and armor), though these are almost always duplicated to some extent (for example, Nemesis has Break Damage Limit in all 7 weapon slots, and Break HP Limit in all 7 armor slots; a less extreme example would be Dark Yojimbo's armor drops having Break HP Limit in 3 slots, Curseproof in 3 slots, and the last slot Ribbon). Fixed abilities are independant of these slots, though it is possible for an enemy to have copies of their fixed ability in these slots too.

Each roll simply rolls a random one of these abilities, and adds it to the equipment. Obviously, it cannot add an ability if:

  • The equipment has no remaining free slots.
  • The equipment already has that ability.
  • The equipment already has an incompatible ability; it does not matter which ability is stronger or weaker, only which one got added first.

If the ability cannot be added, that roll simply has no effect. This is why, for example, you can get armor from Dark Yojimbo with nothing but Ribbon, albeit quite rarely - it means that both rolls resulted in Ribbon being rolled, thus the second roll had no effect as the armor already had Ribbon.

Likewise, to explain the case of Kottos never dropping Evade & Counter in practice, even though in theory it's on the list of things he can drop; this can be explained by that Counterattack is always added as a fixed ability. Evade & Counter and Counterattack are incompatible, so it does not matter that Evade & Counter is superior (unlike when customizing, where you'd be allowed to customize E&C on an armor that already has CA); because Counterattack is already present, it cannot add Evade & Counter.

Another thing that can be explained from this is the frustration you may get trying to drop-hunt empty equipment for Auron and Kimahri. While armor will present no problem, all enemies capable of dropping blank 4-slotted weapons also have Piercing as a fixed ability for those two. Thus, even if they make zero rolls, Piercing will still be present as a fixed ability on any weapon drop for Auron and Kimahri. Thus, you must buy blank weapons for them from Wantz (or seek out a drop that has abilities that you want anyway).

Other factors, such as bonus critical hit rate or damage constant, are fixed for any given enemy. Thus, a drop from Dark Yojimbo will *always* have a DC of 16 and a critical hit bonus of 6%; a drop from a Puroboros will *always* have a DC of 18 and a critical hit bonus of 3%, etc.

HayanNinja (talk) 04:18, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

Forgot to mention. I don't know if the UCG explains how the data translates into mechanics, but it does *have* the raw data for every enemy's drops. It also often explains interesting technicalities, for example Kottos never actually dropping E&C.

Wow that's a lot of info. That would be apt for Item drop#Final Fantasy X.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 17:13, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the not-actually 100% thing, I think it's because, well: If we take all valid integers that can be percentages(out of 100), there are 101, 1 to 100, and 0. If the game uses 256 as its 100%, then 0 is 0%, 128 is 50%, 64 is 25%, 192 is 75%, and 256... is unachievable since they are only going to be using one byte; so 255 is the highest number. Of course, that sounds like bad programming. Sacrificing perfect 100% for one less bit (one less bit many thousand times admittedly).
Though I don't know for sure, and have no real evidence from looking into the game. I think FFVIII does this a bit, the guides detail "255/256" chance a lot. 19:06, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but other mechanics of FFX would suggest this is NOT the case. For example, if you were (by hacking, or obscure combinations) to come up with a literal 99% infliction chance, it still functions as a 99% as far as anyone has been able to tell. Likewise, infliction chances above 100% are possible, as resistance is subtractive rather than multiplicative (eg: attack has 120% chance of infliction, you have 50% resistance, the final chance of infliction is 120-50= 70%, not 120%*50%= 60%).

Of course, since the disparity between the actual chance and the observed chance from statistical analysis would be less than 1%, and those kind of mechanics do not entirely rule out a 256-based RNG, this should not be taken as conclusive proof.

I have heard it mentioned that the game literally reassigns 100% chances to be 99% as a specific case, but I can't remember the exact source, or more importantly, *when* I heard this (as prior to pbirdman clearing a lot of it up, there were a LOT of misconceptions around the mechanics).

HayanNinja (talk) 06:45, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well that is slightly different. Because 100 (0x64) might be the 100%, everything 100% and above (after all calculations) is a guaranteed hit.
With drop rates we're not dealing with calculations are we? It's just a percentage. Whereas with status infliction they have to have base chances at over 100%. They can use the entire 256 combinations for drop rates because there is never a reason to go above the maximum. If it was out of 100, a drop rate of 0x64 is identical to a rate of 0x65, 0xFF, and the 155 combinations in between. With statuses, 0x64 (100%) is different to 0x78 (120%), as you explained. There is reason to make 255 (or 256) not the 100% because we're talking about base chances that can be reduced.
I decided to take out the FFX BradyGames guide. Usual deal. Bomb has a drop rate of 4/256, Cactuar has a rate of 255/256. There are 256 possible combinations but 257 potential integers on the scale. If I were making the game I would just make the game observe 255 values as 100% (effectively making 255/256 being the one missing combination). But it doesn't seem to be what they've done. 16:50, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

A few new notes[edit source]

Firstly, it appears I majorly missed something described in the UCG. The exact way the character is determined is that first, there's a 75% chance of a random drop and a 25% chance of a drop for the character who lands the finishing blow. If it's a random drop, each character (including the one who struck the finishing blow) has an equal chance. Quite simple really, no idea how I missed that until now. Furthermore, it appears in cases like Poison/Doom, it's the character who inflicted the status who gets the character-specific drop. (I have no idea whether Zombie+Regen goes by who inflicts Zombie, who inflicts Regen, or who inflicts the last status.)

I didn't find any more oddities with critical rates or damage constants (I'm already fairly sure there isn't any, but I'm looking through just in case). I did find a few trivia points or details worth including though; I've either added these to the respective pages or left notes on the talk pages for all of them. HayanNinja (talk) 06:31, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think that the first part of the mechanics section makes little sense. For example, out of several people I asked out of curiousity, no one figured how you'd get 56% to HP from +30% and +20% equipment abilities, and what would it mean if they'd add together after "applying the effect", rather than before.

100 + 30% = 130. 130 + 20% = 156.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 04:18, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
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