Talk: Crystarium system

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 18:46, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
		The Roles table was copied from the main FFXIII page; not sure if it should be left there as this page expands. We might like to switch the English names of the roles to the main column. Reedemer and Destroyer has graciously listed the major and minor roles on Final Fantasy XIII's talk page, so I'm planning to tabulate that list as well, if someone else doesn't get there first. I'm not 100% certain on the exact names of these functions; it may by the Crystalium System, although the Japanese version says "Crystarium System" in English. "Roles" and "Paradgma" may not be exactly right, unless anyone can confirm. Lastly, we might want to think about where each character's Crystal Grid of sorts will be covered. Images are probably the best manner in which to illustrate the layout of each grid.

		SilverDragon28 - The code for this template may one day reach such a size that it develops a mind of its own. TALK - 20:34, January 21, 2010 (UTC) Veni, vidi, vici.
		I have to agree with 8bit about the name, "Crystalium" sounds more likely.

Every internet article about it I've yet to see says Crystalium. MadHatter1284 23:21, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

And yet the Japanese version actually refers to the system in English as "Crystarium". I'm not sure they'll change a consonant for the English release, especially when they go out of their way to refer to the system in English in-game anyway. But we'll see. 8bit 00:35, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

Each character has six Roles. Each Role has a specific Crystarium layout. Every layout is different and has a specific property. It's not impossible to draw them on our own, though, I think that might be suited for the Role's pages instead >:3 AJDurai 07:25, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Crystarium structure

All six Crystaria have particular shapes when fully expanded. For example:

• Snow's roles extend along the central axes of a cube; from some angles, it resembles the hexagonal symmetry of a snowflake (hint, hint)
• Fang's roles form two opposite three-pronged sections. I dunno about anyone else, but it makes me think of the ends of her spears
• Vanille's roles spread out in a very distinctive diverging-then-converging way, but I have no idea what that might represent

Anyone else think this sort of thing may be worth a mention? It seems to me that it's at least as interesting as the shape of each character's crystal... -- 19:03, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Old post, but I think Vanille's looks like her Eidolon Hecatoncheir? It has those crazy arms.Keltainentoukokuu 20:27, July 9, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu

Interesting point. That just leaves Lightning, Hope and Sazh for whom we have no idea as to what the shapes of their Crystaria might represent. Not that what we have for the other three is anything more than speculation, of course :P -- Sorceror Nobody  20:33, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think the shapes are similar to the respective character's eidoloth, or perhaps their Eidolon's summon thingy. ZeypherMage

Light's layout is supposedly a thunder, Sazh's a flame, Snow's a snowflake, Vanille's an apple, Fang's ends of her lances, and Hope's a crystal. So, each layout is shaped in what "distincts" the character, I think. And ZeypherMage7, please also include a timestamp in the future ;) —Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 10:50, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Specific Pages?

The remodeling box on this page says that one should, i cite: "Summarize the Crystarium Grid for each character, possibly leading to individual pages for each Crystal Grid or covering them on their respective character pages". Now, I'm wondering. Would it be a good idea to create an additional page for each characters crystarium? If yes, what would be the appropriate naming, and how should it be linked? Doing such a page would be no problem for me, as I own the piggyback guide, which features a full overview of each crystarium, so... Should one create such pages? MirrorshardSceada 21:46, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Nice idea, that. I personally think they should be subpages of the characters' articles (e.g. Oerba Yun Fang/Crystarium), though making them branch from this article (e.g. Crystarium System/Oerba Yun Fang) probably wouldn't hurt. I say go for it... they can be deleted or moved later if necessary. I can help too, seeing as I also have that masterpiece of a Piggyback guide :P -- 21:59, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hehe, I figured I wouldn't be the only one getting that one *gg* But well, in that case, I'll give it a go come tomorrow. Or, rather, later today, as it is already past midnight over here where I live. Gotta get some sleep, otherwise I'll just mess up ;) MirrorshardSceada 22:03, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I did start creating a Crystarium path in my sandbox at one point, but it took absolutely ages to do just one path. Let me dig it up from somewhere... Here it is! Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 22:06, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

POSSIBLE HERESY ALERT! Methinks images will be much easier than actual tables, and there would only be six of them per page, so that's not awful in page-loading terms... -- 22:20, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: I've started designing a tidy little template, but you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow for it. There's no way I'm gonna try to implement it on my PSP's text entry, which is what I'm using now -- 23:27, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Here it is. The only potential problem is that using it would very quickly run up against the limit on how many templates can be put on a page... unless we used {{subst:}}, of course -- 16:18, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Template looks very good SN! Makes a newbie like me wonder just how much you can do in such a wiki... =) But I do see your concern about the number of times we'd have to use the template... - Should we still go on with the template? Or, should we use this subst thing you mentioned? Though, I have to admit, I do not have a clue as to what that does or how it works... MirrorshardSceada 18:02, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

The substitute function just replaces a template with its code instead of transcribing it. For example, if you look at the welcome message on your talk page, that's done with {{subst:Welcome}}, which is why it has the full code rather than just "{{Welcome}}" if you look at the markup there. The only downside to subst'ing my template is that it would make the markup content of the pages utterly humongous. The template isn't huge, but it's big enough to be a possible nuisance if substituted in full... compare this:

{|cellpadding=2 cellspacing=2 style="font-size:8pt; line-height:0.80em"
|height=20px width=40px align="right" style="border:1px solid black; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px;
-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; background:{{#ifeq: H|A|gold|{{#ifeq: H|H|limegreen|{{#ifeq: H|M|
royalblue|{{#ifeq: H|R|gray|{{#ifeq: H|S|salmon|}}}}}}}}}}"|200
|width=100px style="border:1px solid black; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px;
-moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; background:{{#ifeq: H|A|gold|{{#ifeq: H|H|limegreen|{{#ifeq: H|M|
royalblue|{{#ifeq: H|R|gray|{{#ifeq: H|S|salmon|}}}}}}}}}}"|HP+40
|}

...to this:

{{User:Sorceror Nobody/Template test|H|200|HP+40}}

See what I mean? By the way, I now have Lightning's first four COM stages fully demonstrated in my sandbox, so you can see how that looks -- 18:13, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation.

Mmh, looks pretty good to me, I think that's pretty solid. Afterall, this is not a beauty contest, but about the information. And that's all there, in a nice and tidy format. So, what do you say? Use the template like that, and start working on the page? Besides, I'm wondering, would it perhaps be wise to export the template to a specific place outside your profile, or does that all in all not make a difference?MirrorshardSceada 18:31, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I suggest getting started on Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII)/Crystarium, since I've already done part of it (copied across already). As for the template, it needs to be in Templatespace... my template-dedicated user sandbox is certainly not a suitable permanent residence for it! I've copied it to Template:Crystarium, and it can be moved later if any staff think it doesn't belong there. I personally would just do it as transclusion to start with; we can subst it later. The template might be altered at some point, and we don't want to have to change hundreds of subst'ed ones manually, whereas transcluded ones will update themselves -- 19:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Very well, then let us begin. Gonna do the Ravager first as that was the role I tried out first in order to get familiar with the template =) Many thanks for helping me SN! MirrorshardSceada 19:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

OBJECTION! Surely it should be "Crystarium System/Lightning" over "Lightning (tag)/CS". Because the thing all these pages have in common is the "Crystarium System", and therefore all being subpages of that article keeps everything together.

Now you could argue the locations of our character articles for Dissidia are at "Cloud/Dissidia", not "Dissidia/Cloud"... yes, the character articles could be at "List of DFF Chars/Cloud", however, the Dissidia appearance of Cloud would be on Cloud's page, had it not taken up too much space.

Also, since this is a gameplay issue, using the character's gameplay names makes more sense to me, which can only be done through making the gameplay name's the subpage extensions.

Okay, here's what the rules should be: Multiple related subpages of one article, not multiple articles with one related subpage. Which means we shouldn't have a stream of subpages that all have different parents, but identical extensions. But then this would disagree with Dissidia. But we can say this is different because the extended Dissidia information is a child of Cloud (example character) which is a child of the List of Dissidia characters. So "Cloud Strife" is the Dissidia character, the subpage holds more information relating to the Dissidia subject.

I'm sure there's an easier way to explain this.

Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift weapons/Bludgeoning weapons, Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift weapons/Edged weapons, Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift weapons/Ranged weapons. Clearly each subpage is just extended information of the main List of TA2 weapons page. Much like our situation on this page.

Now we have subpages like Yuffie Kisaragi/Limit Break Videos and Cloud Strife/Limit Break Videos, which in my opinion shouldn't be there. Now you can quite easily argue these should be subpages of Limit (Final Fantasy VII), but the page didn't used to exist, so it couldn't. Plus these articles should all just be terminated, or moved onto one subpage for all characters which should be a sub of the Limit article.

Okay, I don't even know what point I need to make, or if I even made my main point already. I get lost in thought. Basically, these character Crystarium articles should be subpages of the Crystarium page since that is the page that clearly links them. The information would otherwise be on the Crystarium System article had it not taken up too much space and therefore should be subpages of the article they were originally intended to be on, and are mained on.

They should also be mained on the character page, however, even if we didn't have these subpages, character articles should have mained the section on the Crystarium System page that regarded that character. 88.108.140.26 22:31, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

I think I have to disagree with you there, ILHI. It all depends on whether we consider, for example, Light's Crystarium on the merits of it being "Light's" or it being a "Crystarium". The Crystaria are unique to the characters, and thus I think should be subpages of the characters. The defining characteristic of the page is that it is Lightning's particular Crystarium. This is an imperfect analogy, I know, but what if we were to make a page about Tidus's Sphere Grid, i.e. the part of it that is accessible to him without Key Spheres? Because the Sphere Grid is one whole thing, "Tidus's" part of it would be subbed to the Sphere Grid, because it's not unique to Tidus. By contrast, the individual characters' Crystaria are unique to them. If there was one Crystarium, The Crystarium, then subbing the pages to this one would be fine. However, there is one Crystarium System but six individual Crystaria, unique to the characters.

Incidentally, they are unique from a canon point of view as well as a gameplay point of view. Each character's crystal, and the Crystarium extending from it, is unique. Much like the characters' Eidolons, which seem to be housed in the characters' crystals, judging from the summon sequences...

Basically, I think it doesn't matter that much which we sub the pages to. I just think that if we are going to make a reasoned case for one over the other, then... well, I've given my reasons. I await your response : ) -- Sorceror Nobody  22:52, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I can make much of a point, I finally got to/remembered my main point at the end there. "The information would otherwise be on the Crystarium System article had it not taken up too much space and therefore should be subpages of the article they were originally intended to be on, and are mained on". It would be like going onto "Limit (Final Fantasy VII)", splitting up all the individual character's tables, and then making "Cloud Strife/Limit Breaks", "Barret Wallace/Limit Breaks" etc. --if the tables don't take up too much space, they go on "Limit", but if they do, they go on each individual character's articles? It doesn't make sense. Subpages are an extension of the main article.

I don't think you can look at it any other way. We've essentially removed content from this page, and redistributed it to the character pages. While all the information is still accessible from the same places, we've re-distributed it with the reason being that it's too much for this page. While this is never stated, if this statement is false, then they should all be on this page without a need for subpages.

As is my point, they would be here if there wasn't a need for subpages, but the community sees a need for subpages. Therefore they should still be on the same page-web, not moved onto seven (the amount of XIII characters quite possibly, I didn't count and I'm not working it out) different page-webs.

We've moved information to different page-webs where the reason isn't "it's easier for navigational purposes". One of the main reasons I created Limit (Final Fantasy VII) in the first place was to move all the Limit Break tables from their character pages into one article so it is all on one page-web and easier to navigate and find- and it places one character's Limit Breaks next to another, making it clear they are all part of the same system.

We should move the Crystarium information from their page-webs into one page-web where one character's CrySyst info can be seen close to another's. On a character's page-web, you can only compare their CrySyst info to other things on the article... but there's no similar info on the page. Since the CrySyst functions the same for each character, all in one place, namely, CrySyst, makes more sense, to me anyway.

Note: Page-web refers to an article and subpages just because I needed a name.

And if you disagree with me further, I don't think I can argue with you. My opinion's as solid as it will be. I don't think I could see it in another way. Like it is now would be exactly like creating "Cloud Strife/Weapons" and "Cloud Strife/Limit Breaks" and moving them from their current locations. We wouldn't do that, so why have we done it this way for the CrySyst? 88.108.140.26 23:40, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

If it's your belief it doesn't matter either way, then it's my belief it does matter that it is being done this way over my preferred method. Which means there would be slightly more in favour for changing it. Since a lot of the community like the "it's fine as it is" argument, we may never get the complete best for the wiki. 88.108.140.26 23:40, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to see what level a character learns a certain spell and since I was aware some of you nice people were adding this info to the wiki I came on this page and... and .... it's not here, there's nor even a link! In the piggyback guide you're using to add the info, is the info on the character's page or is there a crystarium chapter where everyone's crystaria is also listed?Keltainentoukokuu 13:16, August 18, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu

Keltainentoukokuu: Yes, in the Piggyback guide, there is an entire subchapter devoted to depicting the crystaria, much alike to how we are depicting them on the pages we (I think it's only SN and me) are currently working on. Those pages are linked on this page, in the table about the primary and secondary roles. I understand how you could miss them, or, I think, rather mistake them for links leading to the respective character pages instead of the crystaria, as they're not that clear the way they are now. Though, I must admit, I do not know where to put them else on that page... It is more clear on the character pages, where it is linked in the abilities section. But if you just want to find out, on which crystarium level a certain spell is learned, you'd best look it up on either the role's page, or on the ability list. It is faster that way if you ask me.
About the whole thing concerning how the articles should be named: I can see reasons for both ways. For one, if I want to know when Lightning can learn this and that ability, and if I should now go for the Ravager tree or rather the Commando, and stuff like that, I can see it pretty convenient, if it's a suppage of her page. On the other hand, you are right about it being more about the Crystarium than the character, so... I don't know. Both work out for me. MirrorshardSceada 14:09, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Even though they are a subpage of CrySyst, they will still be linked to on the character's pages. 88.108.122.173 14:25, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ooohhhhhhhhhhhh ok I see the links now. It was Stopga I was looking at, because it's not on the techniques page, thought I'd add it if I knew which roles everyone learns it in.Keltainentoukokuu 14:48, August 18, 2010 (UTC)Keltainentoukokuu

Eidoliths

I don't quite get the Eidoliths: as far as I understand each character is given his/her crystal - Eidolith - which is used to expand combat capabilities of bearer. Then the actual Eidoliths are gained from defeating Eidolons. It's all foggy-like to me.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 17:08, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the crystal is designed to represent the system. If we're trying to rationalize, it's difficult to imagine characters stopping by the wayside to pump CP into their crystals. How would that even work? More likely than not, the entire Crystarium system is more of an abstraction, and an abstract system can use an icon that the character may not possess yet. It represents them, and it doesn't give spoilers, no?
Also, it would stink if Hope couldn't level up until chapter 11. Jimcloud 17:39, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why is the page titled Crystarium System when the menu just refers to it as Crystarium? Mierna 15:12, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

Because it's a character development system. See also job system, Junction system, and also, Law system. - Henryacores^ 20:31, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT: The article is about the mechanics of it, which is the growth system. The crystaria, which is to say the actual things around which the system is built, have separate articles (one for each character) -- Sorceror Nobody  20:36, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

Listed as needing images???

I saw this article listed as needed images, however, in the category image page it has all the character's systems...maybe I'm missing what needs to be added here picture wise, but there are a whole bunch here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Final_Fantasy_XIII_Crystarium_Images if that's what your looking for. ~ TheMoonclaw 05:36, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Hm...thanks :D Koharu Nami 05:38, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

No problem :) Pictures are my thing....lol ~ TheMoonclaw 05:40, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Wiki structure for FF13-2 Crystarium progression

I started editing Noel Kreiss/Crystarium and Serah Farron/Crystarium pages, but I've noticed the blank pages for Commando_(Final_Fantasy_XIII-2). Does FFWiki want the structure of that page to be like Commando (Final Fantasy XIII)? There's only two main characters, and monster leveling is quite different in 13-2. Excalibur777 07:49, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

It should follow how job articles usually are structured. Introduce the job, include a list of abilities, etc. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the FFXIII version, if not all sections apply.Keltainentoukokuu 14:50, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

I think that Piggyback Interactive in its FFXIII-2 guide-book preview had a hypothetical layout of the Crystarium. If someone is/will be in possession in one of those, do you think we could make a similar layout?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 14:57, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

I've preordered it, so I'll have it in a day or two. I'll let you know -- Sorceror Nobody  15:07, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

So can someone fill us in?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 19:58, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

It was possible that it might arrive today, but as it turns out, it didn't. So I would most likely expect it to arrive sometime tomorrow. If not tomorrow, though, it won't be until Monday at least, what with the lack of postal service on Sundays -- Sorceror Nobody  22:34, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Umm... any news on it?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 10:44, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I up this once again, as I think that Roles matter even on the small nodes too. Also, I think we could make a subpage detailing allocation of small and large nodes, the tiers, and CP costs for each node. No need to make two separate for Serah and Noel as they have strangely the same CP costs.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 23:38, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 23:45, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

I don't remember if allocation of small and large nodes is the same for Serah and Noel, but ultimately they require identical number of CP to master. Also, I am wondering if we could make "/Crystarium" subpages for recruitable monsters on which we would detail stat growth gained from using Potent, Vitality, Power, and Mana monster materials, along with learned abilities alongside. It would look little like the Crystaria subpages for FFXIII characters. I could make an example page if you want to know what I have on mind.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 21:21, November 11, 2012 (UTC)

Primary role stat optimization

197 large nodes total. 98 levels available of each of COM (+2 strength), RAV (+2 magic), SAB (+2 strength on even levels, +2 magic on odd levels), and SYN (+2 magic on odd levels). The rest give HP +6, so are to be avoided if primary role stat optimization or its related strategy, offensive stat optimization (balanced str and mag), are desired.

Maximum is: Serah +392 Magic, +2 Strength. Noel: +294 Strength, +100 Magic

Serah is the hardest to do-she has two ways to get Magic-every single offensive role that is to be used on large nodes on odd levels must always first be prepared with a small node on even levels, and never twice in succession with small nodes. +196 Magic from RAV (98 nodes odd or even), +98 from SAB (49 odd), and +98 from SYN (49 odd). One large node left for COM, +2 Str.

Noel can only use 147 of the large nodes on strength, with +196 Strength from COM (98 nodes odd or even), and +98 from SAB (49 even). Fifty large nodes left for any combination of RAV (odd or even) and SYN (49 odd), for a total of +100 Magic. While he must always prepare SAB to get strength in the same way as Serah preps it for magic, he has a choice of RAV or SYN for magic.

After 60 RAV, there are no new abilities to be gained. If always spending to reach new abilities rather than purely raising levels is desired, then in the long runs of nodes small to large and back again, it may be necessary to do long runs of raising only SYN or SAB, neglecting MED somewhat. Otherwise, Serah can instead go MED small, RAV large. VvAnarchangelvV (talk) 22:55, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

FFXIII-2 Crystarium Layout for Serah and Noel

I found this by accident. May prove helpful in making the Crystarium Stages for Serah and Noel easier. Yay or nay for including that on respective characters' Crystarium subpages? I'm all for it since we have it for FFXIII characters as well.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 18:10, July 22, 2014 (UTC)