Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "Celestial Void". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

Fun fact: A Google Search for "final fantasy viii" "celestial void" yields 9 results, most of which unrelated to Final Fantasy VIII, and the first one being an FFWiki page. Kappa the Imp 14:09, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

You'll find a lot of pages like that here. Try again.
Also, you might like to know that a Cloud's Subconscious page exists. It may upset your limited views on what a location is. Netherith 14:15, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
Except that place is clearly Cloud's subconscious and can easily be found referenced and explained in Ultimania guides and whatnot. On the other hand this Celestial Void and so-called similarity to The Void were 100% invented by someone called Netherith in 2010. Kappa the Imp 14:25, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
No, the name was 100% invented by me. The actual concept/place, however, was 100% invented by Squaresoft, later known as SquareEnix. And the concept of it being Squall's mind is 100% invented by, and only by, you. I suggest we wait until other editors weigh their votes in, and I suggest you bow to their vote instead of your own. Netherith 14:29, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

Note: For those who are looking at the page. The current wording as of Kappa's edits are NOT intended to be part of the page. Due to his crusade, Kappa has inserted fan speculation and fandom conjecture into the text. For the page's intended design please refer to last edit by myself in the page's history. Netherith 14:45, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

How ironic that you would talk about fan speculation, when your version of the page had even more speculation and the current one is more factual. Kappa the Imp 14:46, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
Here is Netherith's version and the current one. Kappa the Imp 14:48, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is it should have an article. My opinion is referring to it as "Squall's Mind" is not necessarily factual. My opinion is it is a sort-of a "void". It's referred to as a void a lot. I wouldn't call it a "celestial void". I don't know, I don't understand the ending of FFVIII so I can't exactly think of a better title. 15:38, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

It's referred to as a void a lot. -> False. Kappa the Imp 16:21, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
I say we keep it. It fits the definition of a void for most purposes, and the location deserves a mention. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 16:24, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
Agreed with Bluesey and JBed. It's overwhelmingly more likely to be a physical location than not, and the implied nature of it as a Void is clear – it's not exactly within standard spacetime. For want of an official name, the current name's a decent one -- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 16:31, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
I did searchings, people regarding the ending use the word "void". they also use it for where final ultimecia is fought... 16:33, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
I completely agree with JBed, Bluesey and SN here; Netherith was quite justified in making this page and naming it. You, Kappa, have once again behaved like a toddler throwing a tantrum; a sulking child; an imbecile in the traditional sense of the word. Perhaps you will finally change your petty, picayune and childish ways; I guess we both know that isn't going to happen. 16:37, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
It's a bit of earth floating in the middle of lost time. If the place is not clearly and officially celestial and not clearly and officially the Void, it should not be conceptualized as such. This is for the same reason the Gunblade article only mentions weapons referred to as "Gunblades" and not things that some random fans see as gunblades. Also the place where Ultimecia is fought is something else. Kappa the Imp 23:25, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
It's a location of interest that doesn't happen to have a name. The article should stay. If you don't like the name, come up with a better one, but even if it's not celestial, it very much fits the common conception of a void. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 23:29, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
Kappa, I have to say, you proved everything Kuja FFIX said by trying to remove his comment. It may not have been nice, but it wasn't flaming, and we don't have "being nice" as a requirement to edit.
There's no more opinions I can really add, so just throw my opinion in the "article can stay" pile. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 23:37, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
The Void is supposed to be total emptiness (although visually there might be "stars" in the background for some reason). If there's a ground it's possibly reminiscent the Interdimensional Rift at best. But not the Void. And it's nice to see calling someone a severe mental retard is not flaming. Kappa the Imp 23:40, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

A void is really any empty space, which the area very much is. Outer space is a void, but it has plenty of stuff floating around in it. Often platformers have void levels where there's no proper ground, but obviously there are platforms. The fact of the matter is it's void enough for most purposes. As for Kuja, maybe he could have been nicer about it, but, really, I'm inclined to say you're just being oppositional at this point. If you can't give any good reason the article doesn't describe an area of interest in the game, please provide it. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 23:47, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

There are lots of reasons. 1/ The name isn't a simple description and misleadingly implies something official (in fact, it was treated as if it were an official name at first, before the Lua error in package.lua at line 80: module 'Dev:Arguments' not found. template was added). 2/ It's not empty if there's a ground; again, if it had to be compared to anything, it could be said that it's reminiscent of the Interdimensional Rift, but not the Void. But even then it's more "intertemporal" than interdimensional. 3/ There is no reason to believe that this isn't just another part of whatever out-of-time space the characters were in during Time compression, just like the place they were in when they fought the Sorceresses (1)(2)(3). Kappa the Imp 23:55, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
A grand total of none of that says why it's not worth being mentioned on our wiki. It's a unique location and speculating that it might be the same as something else only indicates we might need to consolidate the mention if it can be reasonably determined they're sufficiently similar. Second, there are several articles that have no official name on topics worth mentioning. Third, again, if you don't like the name, change it. And, as I mentioned, the definition of a void covers it just fine. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 00:09, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

While I'm not sure it deserves its own article, there's no reason this information can't and shouldn't be noted on The Void. In fact it was, until Kappa removed it. Doreiku Kuroofangu 23:43, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

Given that Kappa is overwhelmingly overruled, I'm just going to put this back where it originally came from, since it had a home in the first place. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 01:00, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

...So what do we do with this page then? Delete, redirect? -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 01:20, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
Delete. It's unnamed. We don't need to redirect to something there's not an official name for if it's in an appropriate page. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 01:29, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
If we do move it back (I don't see a consensus to do so), we should rename the page from "The Void" to just "Void", seeing as how The Void specifically refers to the space in FFV and spaces in other games proven to be the same space, like in Dissidia and FFI. This void, nor a few others on that page, have been confirmed as an official part of The Void. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 01:30, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

I assume the original motivation for separating this into its own article was because The Void article is about a concept/phenomenon, and this one about a location in a game. However, I'm not sure this would classify as a "location" in FFVIII exactly... Most the location articles in the wiki are for locations where you actually visit in the game, as a player. This one's a bit abstract.Keltainentoukokuu 01:34, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I already put it back with modified wording, since it's the most appropriate place for it other than on its own page. I suppose I jumped the gun on that, but I figured it was an appropriate action since it had simply been removed. I just removed it again, because, really, you're right. It's "a" void, not "THE Void." Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 01:47, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

I believe this info would be better as part of the currently existing Void article, than a separate article. Is the location a physical place is questionable, and most location articles would have stuff like is it a town or a dungeon or unrevisitable location, shop lists, map where it is on the world map...

This is of course a pure fan theory, so for the purposes of the wiki meaningless, but the game emphasises the "believe in each other's existence to be able to exist" for the part of the story. Laguna says that you have to believe in the others and the others must believe in you, to be able to go to the future. To this end, my theory is that you kind of forfeit your physical existence to be able to do that. During the transition FMV Rinoa says she thinks she will disappear, but Squall says he won't let her. This can also lead to thinking is the disc 4 world really the real world or just a "representation" created by the minds of the party members' plus Ultimecia's mind, as you can see stuff just disappear in front your eyes (the white seeds' bodies). In the ending Squall is stranded somewhere outside of time or something, and you can see all his bonds to the real world breaking till he collapses, but the point is that he can't disappear completely as long as Rinoa is still thinking of him. Does this "island" only exist because Squall is there in the void and his mind "created" a place within it where he is stranded?

Of course, because you can see it in the game, it does exist whether it is real or "real", but is a "Final Fantasy VIII Location" the best category for it... I think it would exist more comfortably in the Void article.Keltainentoukokuu 03:39, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

As usual, you make an excellent point, Keltainen, and, although I feel that Netherith was justified in creating the page, I would indeed agree with your reasoning. 03:50, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
I would also rather fold this article back into the Void page. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 03:57, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
If we're moving this back there, then The Void really needs to be split, or renamed, or something to differentiate The Void from other voids. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 04:10, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
The would go against the idea of the concept itself. Doreiku Kuroofangu 04:39, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
The FFVIII section could say, as I think it already did, that the location in the ending resembles the Void as seen in the series. It is hinted that the Void exists in some form in FFVIII as Gilgamesh appears from a "dimensional portal" so this occurrence in the ending could be mentioned along with it. It's then left up to the reader what to make of it, is it a "true" appearance of the Void or something else.Keltainentoukokuu 04:48, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
This article was made due to the information's removal from The Void page. I will gladly put this page up to deletion and return the info to the page if it is required. If it is voted to stay, I will add info to fill it out, perhaps work on some theories on exactly what it is as well as adding additional images. I'm fine with either result, as long as the info is presented; as it IS a noted location. Netherith 08:14, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

What appears to be the same location.

No one commented on this. Kappa the Imp 09:41, September 25, 2011 (UTC) ---->

Already noted as a location within the Time compression. It is also a battleground; which are notorious for diverging from the layouts of the intended location they represent. We do not know its nature, we do not know enough about it to decide wether it is the same location or not. It could just be a coincidence.

Meanwhile, we know the nature of this Celestial Void, we know why it is there, how it is there, and what is there. Netherith 10:29, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Desert = loner (and this looks nothing like the Void)

That's a rather weak argument. All the battlegrounds in FFVIII are faithful to their intended locations. There is not reason why this would be the only battleground in the game not to be faithful to its intended location. This suggests that all those weird Time compression locations (right at the beginning of the Time compression sequence and right after the final battle) are just transitory, metaphysical spaces in the time stream rather than physical locations. In the ending, the characters need to imagine a place that reminds them of their friends to return to their era and not be lost out of time, and they need "love and friendship" for that (as explained by Laguna). This barren desert (pictured on the right -->) is just meant to show that Squall's loner, solitary personality is unable to imagine such a place. Kappa the Imp 11:37, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
And is thus stuck in an intermediatory void. Note: A void, not The Void. We've been saying that for quite some time now. Netherith 11:48, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
I'm with merging it back to the Void article, but wouldn't really object to it being a separate article. Either way, we most certainly have to cover it; it's notable, it's a significant part of the game's ending... and yes, as has been pointed out oh-so-many times, it most certainly is some kind of void, even if not the Void. A couple of other points:
  • Battle backgrounds do generally match the location, but they are far from being a reliable basis for an argument. More to the point, you say that "There is not[sic] reason why this would be the only battleground in the game not to be faithful to its intended location." However, this statement is built entirely on the assumption that it's "intended" to be the same. That assumption is yours; thus it is not a valid argument to use to support your view.
  • "But even then it's more "intertemporal" than interdimensional." Fail. Time is a dimension.
-- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 14:06, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

I doubt the location for the battle against Sorceress 3 is supposed to be the same location as the celestial wasteland Squall is stranded in. What I think is also interesting/notable is that the wasteland seems to shrink into an island while Squall is there, but when Rinoa finds him it is no longer an island, the edges just disappear into grey mist.Keltainentoukokuu 15:58, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Let's merge it back into The Void article and make it clear that it's not The Void then. No need for this totally made-up "Celestial Void" name. And Sorceror, dimension is generally used to mean parallel world in Final Fantasy, not the usual scientific dimensions (for instance Dissidia says that Gilgamesh travels the dimensions; this obviously means traveling parallel worlds and not between 2D and 3D). Kappa the Imp 16:04, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

2D Gilgamesh, 3D Gilgamesh. Any further questions? -- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 16:29, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
Nice! XD
Aside from that, dimensional theories in regards to parallel dimensions in some cases posit that our dimensions of back-front, side-side, and up-down are simply repeated out of sync with our own, or "a little off to the side" or "at a different rate of vibration" or however you want to think of it depending on theory. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 18:15, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Are we putting it back to The Void? Change in its wording?Keltainentoukokuu 18:43, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

I can simply restore my modified wording from when I put it back there if that's the route we're going, maybe make a few more tweaks. Bluestarultor Best-of Stellar Arena sigicon.png BSA 18:51, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
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