Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "Action encounter". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

someone just clarify for me, how does this differ from fixed encounters? Thanks Likeacupcake 16:06, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

An action encounter relies on the use of the "action" button. Fixed encounters use triggers the players runs into. 16:07, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Sounds to me like you're splitting hairs. Is there any signficant difference between the two? Not really. Likeacupcake 16:12, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
There is actually. The major difference is one requires the use of the action button, the other is moving into a certain area. They are vastly different. The Iron Claw battle in FFV is entered completely differently to the Captain battles in FFII. 16:17, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
But by moving to that tile, you are pressing buttons. By moving to that point you are taking an action. Either way, is it REALLY that different that it warrants a separate page? There may be a minor difference, but that is minor, or even negligible. Likeacupcake 16:20, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, but it's not the designated action button. The two types of encounters are created in two different ways. Fixed encounters are created by placing a "trigger area" across the ground, or a tile. Action encounters are created by assigning a series of events to a particular item. Fixed encounters are used for surprise battles and less for boss engagements (with exceptions, and discerning from script encounters) where Action encounters are designed for boss battles. In later games, fixed encounters are used less except for the script encounter branch which are used far more. Action encounters are used less in later games, since the script encounter covers it best.
They do warrant two different pages. Look at FFI's section on both articles. They cover very different things. 16:26, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
So are you saying that if something is triggered by two similar methods, but other than that they are identical, they are automatically completely different? I think not.
As for the extra information; could be easily merged into a single article (Though looking at the Fixed's page, it needs a reorganization... would probably benefit from a table or something...). They are virtually the same thing. Likeacupcake 16:31, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, FFI's Fixed is disorganised because it was scavenged information. Some of the stuff could be organised better in the individual locations pages, but I'm not ready to do that in the current state of the location pages.
As fir the merging them. Why? They're two different types of encounter. As close as they are (which they aren't, that's like saying fixed encounters are like random encounters because they're both encountered when you move over an area, one leads to a definite encounter, the other leads to a chance of an encounter), they're something that clearly makes them different. There's a clear definition that separates them. Merging the pages would give use huge amounts of information going into the merged page. BUT since there is a clear way to separate them, they don't have to be in one colossal page and work perfectly on two different pages.
In the original Final Fantasy, there are three types of encounter. Random encounters, spiked tiles (fixed encounters), and others caused by pressing the action button on things, the action encounters. Spiked tiles and action encounters are completely different. 16:39, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps another example to help you to see what I'm trying to say (I think that is where our problem lays; he don't quiet understand each other). You would not argue that the way spells acquired in, for example, IV and IX deserve separate pages, correct? But here's the thing; in IV you gain spells from gaining levels, in IX you learn them by earning AP points with a piece of equipment selected.

They are mostly identical, but the way in which they are gathered has an greater difference then Action and Fixed encounters. If the pages were to be merged, I would spend a bit of time reorganizing things first, so the state of the pages not really a valid point in this discussion by the way. Likeacupcake 16:46, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

You're right, they do deserve different pages. They're called Final Fantasy IV abilities and Final Fantasy IX abilities. 16:55, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the abilities themselves, they are very different in functionality, I'm talking about the way in which they are gathered. Just as a side note: It's about 1 AM here, so I may disappear soon. If I do I'll resume this is the morning. Just a heads up. Likeacupcake 16:58, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
I know exactly what you're saying. The answer is simple, we don't have a page for Spell/Ability gaining systems, except Ability Points if you can include it. Since AP isn't applicable for FFIV, it clearly wouldn't be covered there. It would be covered on a Level page, as it is. And both systems are essentially explained in the two List of Abilities pages I linked to, at least by the places in the table. I suppose it would have more sense to link to [[List of Final Fantasy IV Spells]].
So your point doesn't make sense when there isn't a designated page for spell/ability-learning systems, forget pages for individual ones. Now, I'm not saying an "Ability/Spell" development article would be a bad idea. But they would go on the same page, in an Appearances section.
Now to get back to the point at hand, we have three primary different types of encounter. I have not included the "script encounter" subordinate of "fixed encounter" since it's not officially covered on fixed encounter, and I originally meant to make it its own page. Battle.
  • Random encounter
  • Dominantly encountered in the field and the World Map
  • Encountered by running over certain areas
  • Used as the key encounter system of the game
  • Fixed encounter
  • Encountered by running over certain areas
  • Dominantly encountered in the field
  • Used for surprise encounters or special battles
  • Action encounter
  • Dominantly encountered in the field
  • Encountered by pressing the action button towards a certain thing
  • Used for bosses

I fail to see how they are comparable. What you are saying is we should split the "entrances to battles" into two sections. Random encounters and non-random encounters. Random encounters are encounters that have a chance of occurring when moving over enemy infested plains. Non-random encounters can occur when moving over a trigger, visible or otherwise, sometimes remains after the enemy is defeated, sometimes works once, sometimes to protect things, sometimes before triggering a scene, when using the action button before triggering a scene, and when special items are used, such as the Magical Lamp.

So many things are covered in "non-random encounters". Random encounters doesn't vary much. I split "non-random encounters" into two simple things. Both are used a lot in the game, and it covers everything (except Magical Lamp which I can just cover in "Action"). 17:13, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

A few things: First off; "special battles" A.K.A. Boss fight. "Dominantly encountered in the field" is in both of them. "Encountered by running over certain areas" is "pressing [a] button towards a certain thing". So from that point of view, you just proved there is no difference between them. That is how they are comparable.
Ok, the spell thing was a bad example. What I was trying to say is this; some of the spells are the same (take cure for example) but the way they are gained is the same, so should we have cure (level gained) and cure (item learned) pages?
This may just be my tiredness talking, but I got a little confused in that last section. What I am saying is this; is there really a difference between pressing "left" and pressing "x" to start a battle? A lot of the time with your "action battles" you can't tell there is going to be a fight either way. Likeacupcake 17:22, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
Screw it: I'm going to bed. I'll look into this when I'm actually awake. Likeacupcake 17:23, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
No, moving into a certain thing and pressing a button towards a certain thing are not the same thing.
Special battles doesn't mean boss fights. It means the Ancient Dragon, Stinger, Wind Wing, Behemoth -- action encounters are always preceded by at least one line of script, other times by an entire scene. Boss battles are rarely fixed because they usually have a scene before it, whereas demi-bosses like Behemoth, and other things like the others suggested aren't bosses.
Okay, random encounters and fixed encounters are the same, except one place is set an encounter rate of 100%, another of much less. Fixed encounters and action encounters are the same, because they have a trigger that guarantees a battle, except one gives the player more control, the other (since a lot of fixed encounters are invisible) doesn't.
So there. Random encounters are like fixed encounters, but slightly different. Fixed encounters are like action encounters, but slightly different.
But it doesn't matter. Each of these things have a very clear thing that separates them. To split the encounter system into "random encounters" and "non-random encounters" is wrong when you know there is so much variation in the "non-random encounters" page. 17:32, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
How do you move? You press a button. How do you select something? You press a button. What is the difference?
Okay, let's ignore the how they begin for a moment. How do they differ after that? Your "Action" encounters and Fix Encounters both can manifest as the same thing; it way they began does not effect the content. Simple as that. If the content (i.e. what is IMPORTANT) is unaffected, then regardless of what may happen in the extra (read; the UNIMPORTANT) parts, such as the triggering, the have no significant difference. Likeacupcake 23:17, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
But random encounters are caused by pressing a button (the directional buttons) over a specific area. 11:50, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
Random encounters contain creatures that are faced a good many times, and can happen at any given time in any given place. Both your "action" encounters and fixed encounters occur at a given place, only once or twice, and almost always contain either a scripted battle or a boss fight. Random encounters are more mundane and I do believe they are never enhanced with a script of any form. "Action" and fixed battles almost always are, with notable exceptions. Likeacupcake 11:54, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
In FFI there are no such thing as a one-time fixed encounter. There is also no such thing as a multiple-used action encounter. In FFII, there are both one-time and multiple-used action encounters, but I still don't recall a one-time fixed encounter (other than the script encounters that may exist). Wind Wing's in Whirlwind Maze - multiple-times. Ancient Dragon in Temple of the Ancients - multiple-times. JBed 12:03, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
FFI is an outlier is almost every circumstance; it's rare occurrence when it actually follows the pattern. So unless this occurs in other games, it's not really a strong stand point. And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the Wind Wing and Ancient Dragon, so can you say that a little clearer please? Likeacupcake 12:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
In VII, when you run into the wall of wind/energy/whatever it's supposed to be in the Whirlwind Maze, you get into a fight. In the Temple of the Ancients, when you get hit by the second-hand, you fall off and enter fight an Ancient Dragon -- technically this one is a "script encounter" due to the fact you get knocked into a different screen.
You can't say FFI and FFII are outliers. They're the ones that predominantly used these two types of encounters. The two games that made me decide we needed alternate pages to the random encounters in the first place.
The thing is, I still don't see why you're arguing. There is a very definable difference between fixed and action encounters. Fixed encounters, due to their instant nature, are just non-random encounter battles, often against special non-boss enemies, rarer, they are against real bosses only for an element of surprise. Action encounters are entered with full knowledge of the player. They might not know what they're doing will lead to a battle, but you can often expect it. They pressed the action button.
Saying fixed encounters and action encounters are similar is just wrong. The closest thing about them is the fact that they have both been used to protect treasure chests, fixed in the form of spiked tiles surrounding a chest, and action in the form of monster-in-a-box. The thing is though, monsters-in-a-box is such a small part of action encounters, it's one of the few that are actually meant for surprise. 12:32, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
Take just about any trend of the series (Chocobos, Cid, and various others), the format of the game (the "single line" plot), the characters (mostly blend into the background; there is rarely anyone with anything interesting to say, apart from "go here next" lines), and various other aspects of the games, and you'll see that FFI (and to a slightly lesser extent FFII) it quite unlike the other games. This makes it, by definition, an outlier.
The reason I'm argue with you is because I don't believe the difference is significant enough to warrant a separate page, and they should be merged into a single page.
And I'm running out of ways to counter the same point, over and over. You are yet to offer me proof that the two are different; you are only rewording the same point time and time again. How is facing something and pressing a button any different from facing a tile and pressing a button? Answer; nothing. Likeacupcake 12:47, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
But your counter isn't very strong when you consider they are different. And that's your grounds for the games to be considered outliers? They use the same battle system, field elements and battle elements. There aren't any other things that effect this particular matter so the lack of a Cid character, the lack of chocobos, and the story doesn't matter at all.
I'm just going to list their similiarities and differences now.
  • fixed encounter
  • Meant for surprise
  • Entered when the player moves over a position (often invisible)
  • Commonly used for non-boss battles
  • Action Encounter
  • Entered when the player decides to use a button
  • Commonly used for boss battles
I don't think I need anything more. They're different. They're not the same. Arguing there both triggered by action buttons is not only technically wrong, but silly. So you're going to argue that the different directions on the D-pad are the same as the X button? No, they do completely different things. The square button is the same as the X button now? No. And yes, it's technically wrong, since action encounters are triggered by the action button. Fixed encounters are triggered by the player's on-screen character moving over an area. It's triggered by a particular button on the D-pad, or a particular direction the analogue stick is moved, the trigger is placed over an area of ground or tile. Action encounters rely on a self-decided interaction with the player's on-screen character, and something else.
Now, I'm not even going to continue after this. It doesn't mean I'm going to submit to merging the articles. They're different. They're evidently different. They function in two very different ways, with the one similarity of requiring a trigger (much like random encounters require a player to be a ground where random encounters are set), they serve different purposes, against different types of enemies. 12:58, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
Once again you have written a wall of text without saying anything that you have not, and I have offered my counters for, most of which you attempted to counter by repeated what you said in the previous paragraph.
This may be a little childish, but I'm going to direct you to this page. And due to this, an obvious sign of my frustration, I think it is clear that neither of us are budging from our positions. So here's what I'm going to do; I'm going to give a blanket shout out to various mods and admins, see if I can get one of them to come and review our arguments here, and make an decision, as this has gone on for long enough to make it clear that neither of us are going to surrender, and we're just getting stubborn (both of us). And let this be the end of it; I will go along with any decision he/she makes, and I'll let it die here. Likeacupcake 13:09, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like something that's triggered every time you try to open a treasure chest and it turns out to be a Mimic. BLUER一番 12:36, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Resolution?[edit source]

I know I am not among those called into this specifically, but I want to throw my thoughts in. Fixed and Action encounters are, in my opinion, fundamentally different, but in a comparatively subtle way. Since they are similar, I propose something of a compromise: merge the two articles, but keep the two types under their own sections on the merged page. Both articles are less than huge; the larger of the two is fixed encounters, but I took a cursory glance at it and saw a few Action ones on there, so it can easily be trimmed slightly -- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 14:44, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

It was more of an open call to anyone, just placed on those user's talk pages so that if all else failed, we'd have someone that could say once and for all; "This is how it's going to be...". I'm happy with this solution by the way. Likeacupcake 14:46, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
That's not a compromise, putting them on the same page while keeping them separate solves nothing -- they'll get so big they may as well be split anyway, since we've already noted the difference. In addition to the fact they have two different names -- so have fun finding a pagename.
Also the lengths of the articles are nothing to work on. Neither article is complete and were all done from memory except for FFI. My memory of VII is very strong, but of other games... not so much. Plus I don't remember if each boss I fight is an action or script encounter. 14:52, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
You're really not going to be happy until you get your own way, are you? How about this; we merge them, and if they do prove to be too big, then we can split them again, happy?Likeacupcake 14:54, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
EDIT CONFLICT: My suggestion is a compromise between merging them completely due to similarity, or keeping them entirely separate due to difference. I actually hope that we agree not to compromise, because they are fundamentally different, and I personally do not think we should merge them, but since some people think we should merge them, it is theoretically possible that the majority vote may turn out to be merging, in which case my compromise would become a relevant possibility. I apologise for not making myself clearer. Oh, and just for the sake of completeness, here's the token attempt at a merge name... something along the lines of "Event battle", perhaps? -- Sorceror Nobody Flan.PNG 15:06, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Lua error in package.lua at line 80: module 'Dev:Arguments' not found. Basically, when I tried to divide the types of encounters, I used FFI as my base. It was a simple game, simple ways to divide. And since, well basically, future games just repeated this.

The divisions are like so:

  • Action Encounter - refers to all encounters that are initiated by the action button or script following up upon the action button. So even if there's ten minutes of speech between the action and the battle, as long as there are no other player triggers between, it's an action encounter.
  • fixed encounter - refers to all encounter that are initiated by moving over, or into a certain spot, sprite/model, or thing.
    • Script Encounter - a type of fixed encounter - basically, the difference lies in the script. So if moving beyond a certain point triggers a script, which follows onto the battle (ie. you move somewhere, someone says "you've gone too far, i kill you", and then there's a battle, it's a Script Encounter.

SO, to answer your question: "If the action button is used before the battle, and no other player input can change the fate of the battle starting, then it is an action encounter, regardless of the amount of script that plays". 16:53, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

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