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Latest revision as of 00:42, 23 July 2021
New fuel for the fire
Playing through 8 again and reading all the manuals and booklets and guides made me realize something I never really noticed before about Rinoa. As you travel through time compression and fight all the sorceresses you kill them all. Now according to the game, when a sorceress dies her power is passed on to another person capable of containing the power. Rinoa is the only sorceress in your party at this time, and so all those sorceresses powers must have been passed on to her. Therefore, if she absorbed so many sorceresses powers, she would have inadvertently become the most powerful sorceress in all of time. With that power, she was no longer an ordinary sorceress that was bound to live as long as a normal human, as ordinary sorceresses were, and so could easily be Ultimecia. I just thought that was interesting and that if you guys agree, we might want to add that to the theory considering it explains why she and Ultimecia both break the rules of normal sorceresses, and could very easily be the same person. RalisII 01:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)RalisII
Edits
- While you've remained minorly biased in your most recent edit, I'm not gonna change it this time since you've actually added to it rather than removed from it. I haven't mentioned yet, but I am glad that you finally got around to making an account.--Goldberry2000 07:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Goldberry, for making me feel welcome. Anyway, I orginally removed it because it is orginal research, and can't be proven, and it is easy to disprove it. Anyway, could we continue this conversation soon because I'm interested in your opinions. Eris -Eileen-
Here is why I don't support this theory: Eris
Rinoa/Ultimecia theory or the lack thereof
This so called strong evidence is an entire series of assumptions that are so wrong its a joke. Here's what I've observed.
1. Rinoa is immortal. This is false. It is stated in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide published by Square that sorceresses have normal lifespans, Adel wouldn't need a successor if sorceresses are immortal (Ellone is kidnapped because of this in the game).
2. Rinoa's wings going from angel white (there's a lot of emphasis on this in the game) to black. There's no evidence of her being "an evil sorceress" in the game, if you watch the opening video, the wings change as Squall gets injured during the duel. It may be a warning of the fated sorceress fights (Edea and Ultimecia), (Rinoa, if you notice is worried about her powers until Edea tells her about having a knight, and everything changes, she's calmer).
3.Rinoa's words with Squall about stopping time on the Ragnarok somehow supports this theory, she didn't want to leave Squall and be stuck in space(She even goes with the Esthar officials to do just that to protect people in case she gets possessed, doesn't sound like an evil sorceress does it?).
4. Rinoa forgets Squall (after becoming Ultimecia because of continued GF use) and tries to kill Squall and of course as she's being defeated give him the lecture about time (Rinoa didn't know him in childhood nor does she hate SeeD's (She's in love with the Commander of SeeD, Squall, after all.)
5. The next assumption is that Ultimecia wants to get Squall back through Time Compression (if he's dead from her acts how can she get him back?). Also Ultimecia doesn't have a knight which is why she is assumed to be crazy (Rinoa does have one and so is sane), more importantly Ultimecia is called "she" by Rinoa, and has "hate in her heart" not suiting to Rinoa's free spirit (she doesn't want to alienate people), Ultimecia also tries to kill Rinoa and Squall multiple times (no evidence is given to say Rinoa would have continued to use GF's and forgotten her past and Squall).
6. Ultimecia's accent is not present in Rinoa's speech, she spits out words with C's perfectly so where would she have acquired it?. As for the assumption that Ultimecia's castle is in Edea's house (it floats or else why would it have chains keeping it down?) and it matches the opening words of the game of the protagonists being Fated Children. Edea's House is not enterable.
7. The appearance assumption is also wrong (all FF8 women's faces look alike) and what I find most interesting is that Ultimecia has gray hair. The Griever necklace assumption is also shot down because Rinoa doesn't know what is on his ring, and if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF."
8.Two more pieces of evidence are also important, the first is Ultimecia can't be Rinoa or else they can't fight each other in her castle, Ultimecia does't recognize Squall at all (Rinoa would since use of GF's are debatable. In fact Rinoa doesn't seem to be affected by memory loss due to GF use she remembered the Deling City incident and Squall doesn't (In the flower field scene) and Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia three times which would explain Squall's image in Time Compression (Remember past, present and future are all mixed up) and Squall did see Rinoa's possession by Ultimecia through Ellone on Lunar Base and it could be it as simple as he remembering that along with everything at once (Time Compression is sometimes just unexplainable).
9.The second piece of very important evidence is that FF8 is a love story (like fairy tales they have happy endings and Rinoa being evil and crazy beings her out of character context.)
10. If anyone reads the Flare Gamer it says that Normura likes Rinoa alot (why have her be the antagonist? Is it too show his liking for the character to have Rinoa supposely become Ultimecia?)
11. Rinoa's alive after Time Compression and the world is safe and Ultimecia is dead after giving her powers to Edea. If Square wanted to make a link between the characters why not have Ultimecia give her powers to Rinoa? (If I might add, not all sorceresses give up there powers in fact all of them except Adel, Ultimecia and Edea (Rinoa is excluded) die without giving up their powers and Rinoa received Edea's powers after Ultimecia gave Rinoa the sorceress embodiment power but Edea has her powers until she goes to the Lunatic Pandora after catching it she gets thrown out and stops being a sorceress and Rinoa receives Edea's sorcery and becomes a sorceress).
12. Ultimecia tried to kill Rinoa. If Rinoa is indeed Ultimecia, killing herself in the present prevents her from becoming Ultimecia in the future.
13. Lastly, Rinoa can't be Ultimecia for all these reasons and this theory is false. Ultimecia is just a sorceress from the future who is not loved and so created her end herself. Saying that Rinoa is Ultimecia is like saying since no one knows where Necron came from, then I guess he must be Zidane right?
I always chalked up similarities to Ultimecia's time compression. By combining all of the Sorceresses into one, of course that person would have some of Rinoa's attributes etc.. 14:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
First off, you are making several reasoning fallacies in your aguement but instead of pointing them out, which would be useless as you would no doubt argue me into teh ground, lets just make something clear - Rinoa can be 100% good and ultimecia can be 100% evil and be teh same person, because people change over time, and things happen that cause that.
There is no definate way of answering this debate because of several things that happen in the game:
First, there's time compression. Because of this, all of time being concentrated into a single moment would cause past present and future to become mixed into one, making serious problems in the time line of FF8. As seen in the ending sequence, one moment Rinoa is there with squall the next she is not, one moment she is dead in space the next she is alive in the field. It could easily be that this one incident caused numerous timelines to erupt from the main one. One in they never met, one she died in space, one they lived happily ever after, and one they couldn't find each other and so she became obsessed with recreating time compression in order to reunite her with her lost Squall, and ultimately turn her into Ultimecia.
Second there is the major timeloop. When Ultimecia dies she passes her powers on to Edea in the past, and Squall instructs them to create SeeD. He therefore creates a timeloop that essentially causes their entire timeline also to become twisted and broken in places. In such a never ending loop, it makes sense that just as Squall will forever found the SeeD that he eventually joins, and Edea forever receives the power of the one she is trying to defeat, so also Ultimecia might forever be attempting time compression so that her past self can be with squall before starting the cycle over again.
There are other smaller places and events that also suggest that the world and timeline of Rinoa and Squall is seriously suffering because of the events that teh characters have done and so therefore it is impossible to say whether Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same because they could be the same and completely different people all at the same time thanks to Time Compression and the Timeloop. RalisII 01:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)RalisII
OMG I dont know your name but I totatly agree with Rinoa not being Ultimecia. It just doesnt work out. Why would square lie and say that soceresses cant live to a full lifespan when they really can? The only thing I can really think of which might work is Ultimecia might be Rinoas daughter or grand daughter or something like that but thats just what I think. Sorry about my bad grammar, my laptop is messed up.
The timeline of Final Fantasy VIII does not support parallel universes, which is what would happen if we were to believe Rinoa is Ultimecia. That is the only way this would work, which the game shows it could not have worked out that way. Combined with the first post above you should be able to piece that together. Lilitu Wind 04:26, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
Pardon my interruption but I felt I had to say my peace. My understanding of Time Compression was not that the past, present and future were "mixed into one" as you put it... but rather due to the nature of the event existed simultainiously. Another argument could be put forward to say that Ultimecia did not "create" Greiver, Guardian Forces and their origins are not explained in depth enough to have a valid excuse for their creation, a possible theory, that admittedly suits my argument, is that Squall's personification of his ring lead to the embodiments of its traits; things he wanted to be, manifested in the GF Griever. The cause for this may be time compression, as time is not static and is erratic in its behaviour, and Squall is afterall tied intrinsically to it's being. Nearing to the end of my argument lies the crux of the issue... I do not know if Ultimecia is Rinoa, but seeing as the storyline draws on Sorceress's requiring Knight's to stay somewhat sane it is plausible. Personally though I would see it as I nod towards the philosophy of the duality of self; we the players drawn toward the similarity in character, no matter how escued, and the happenstance of Squall's GF being his ambiton incarnate so to speak. This does not explain how Rinoa/Ultimecia could have lived for so long, though if Squall had died... It's improbable, but not impossible.
Well
I always chalked up similarities to Ultimecia's time compression. By combining all of the Sorceresses into one, of course that person would have some of Rinoa's attributes etc.. koku 14:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
What Griever really is
We all know that in the English version of the game, Griever is, in Squall's mind, the most powerful GF. However, having played the French version, which is also 100% retranslated from Japanese, I did notice some differences. I feel inclined to believe that the French version got a thing or two correct. As well as some extra dialogue from Cid and Edea about how Sorceresses are supposed to find a Knight who will lead them down a path of goodness and benevolence (note that Adel and Ultimecia had no Knights; Cid is actually Edea's until Ultimecia possesses her), one thing I never caught anyone saying in the English version. Do correct me if I'm wrong, will you? Anyway. This is my basis for believing the French version on Griever's origin. Rinoa (or Linoa, as she's called this time round) asks Squall about the cool monster on his ring. Sure enough, he reminds her it's a Lion named Cronos (I don't have a clue either). When fighting Ultimecia, she says, in French, something along the lines of "With my power I can conjure your ultimate foe... become victims of your own imaginations!" She does the flashy magic sequence, and out pops Cronos, the very monster whom Squall idolises. Sorceresses are never shown having the power to create GFs, so I doubt Rinoa would create Griever as a GF from Squall somehow, plus it's kind of a wacky coincidence that he wears a ring with the same name as a GF being used by a demented ol' witch thousands of years in the future. Once I've run into the necessary dialogue in the game, I'll transcribe and translate it. Also, if anyone has played the Japanese version, I'd appreciate some input on the matter, either to back me up or disprove me because, damn it, I want answers!
Slight addition: Hrmm, my mistake, seems the whole dialogue about a Knight's role is all in there. Oh well. Either way, I find the "Ultimate monster creation" theory a bit more palatable. Again, anyone who's played the Japanese version could confirm this.
CAPITALs
Should the Sorceress words and knight be capitalized? -Azul 00:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Mymindislost - You made me forget my dreams when I woke up to you sleeping... TALK - 00:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
I would say only if they're being used as a title for a specific person, like Sorceress Edea, but if you were just talking about them in general, it would just be sorceress. It's the same thing with "mom" and "dad." If you're just talking about moms and dads in general, it's just mom and dad, but if you're talking about your mom and dad, it would be Mom and Dad, since they're being used as titles in that context. But I don't know how big of a deal it really is. | |||
I didn't want to do it some one else did. | |||
Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 00:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
I agree with MMIL. | |||
Someone else did it.Look on the page history.Pictomancer | |||
Who thinks we should make this a dud page like the FFVII one?
Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 01:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
I do! | |||
Mymindislost - You made me forget my dreams when I woke up to you sleeping... TALK - 01:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
That would be AWESOME. O_O | |||
What is a dud page? | |||
Mymindislost - You made me forget my dreams when I woke up to you sleeping... TALK - 01:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
CSM's talking about making it into a joke page like the Final Fantasy VII/Romantic Arguments page, since pretty much everyone here thinks stuff like the two of these pages is utterly ridiculous. | |||
Oh yeah that was hilarious.That would be cool.I think that CSM or you MMIL should make one.I wouldn't be able to contribute because I haven't really gotten into FFVIII | |||
Well, apperantly I'm outvoted by all the people who actually have avatars and banners and crap like that. If you really feel the need of making fun of things you don't agree with go right ahead. I would just like to say that this topic is nothing like the VII one other than the fact that none of you buy it. So yeah, and btw, the VII page really isn't that funny. No offense but with that kind of material I was expecting a bit more. Oh well. 72.90.99.197 03:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Ralis
square?
I notice that one the theory page it says that square has declared the theory false not that i don't believe but I'm just curious about that any one have a source i mean i know the Fantasy VIII Ultimania guide says that sorceresses have an average life span but that not much for debunking it. is there any other case of square denying this theory. not that I'm really in that this theory i noticed alot of guys get violent about it i just don't think Ultimecia's motivation is she's evil that an insult to Hironobu Sakaguchi and Kazushige Nojima I am also curious to why ultimecia is compressing time i like this theory but it can get hard to believe i don't like the wicked theory but i am open to other ones--Dcruse90 01:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I like this theory and I also don't understand why the Ultimecia page puts down every view besides the wicked theory I think the writer of the wicked theory wrote that section--165.138.145.6 19:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps if Ultimecia had a personality, motive, or purpose we wouldn't think that she has no personality, motive, or purpose. Should've kept with Edea, now that was a villain. Ultimecia has no more depth than Exdeath or Necron. | |||
Ultimecia is Rinoa... But not the one we know... She is the Rinoa from the other timeline
So, I red all the material about this theory and I think that if this would be true it would make Final Fantasy VIII plot thousand times more exciting... But I think that many versions of the theory are uncorrect... I say so because it's simply impossible that Ultimecia may be a future version of the same Rinoa we see during the game... The reason is simple... Rinoa recives her powers as a Sorceress from Ultimecia herself passing through Edea... And if they would be the same person it would be impossible for the future Rinoa to pass her powers to the past herself in the first place... Time-space flows as a line and it's obvious that Ultimecia should have recived her powers from someone else, not herself, because it's impossible to be the giver and the receiver of the same powers at the same time... Ultimecia is instead "the other Rinoa"... The one existing in the timeline where thare was no intromission from the future and where the events flow in a different way... No Edea's mess, no meeting between Rinoa and Squall... Rinoa is alone and a potential Sorceress, se probably recives her power from Adel and became the new feared and heatred Sorceress... She manged to survive becoming immortal or long-lifed (I know Square said that Sorceresses live an average lifetime but Rinoa could have gained a longer life anyway) or most likely she is defeated by the SeeD and sealed just like Adel... This until the future when she managed to wake up somehow and seeking revenge against the SeeD and everything planning to compress time and rule on all existence taking the name of Ultimecia and being hatred and persecuted again... But this plan to compress time using the Junction Machine made her to move the mind into the past changing it and creating an alternate reality, a timeline where things are different and where her past self met Squall, her Knight, had friends, felt beloved and became a Sorceress anyway, but with the will to follow the light instead of the darkness and to defeat the other herself in the future... So it means that maybe the theory is part true - part fake, because many belive that Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person, but they are wrong... Well, not completely because we could consider Ultimecia and Rinoa as two different versions from two different timelines of the same person. goldsaint13 15:51, 1 June 2008
Rinoa and Ultimecia are unrelated other than being witches. Please read.
reply to the "Ultimecia is the Other Rinoa" thing
That was SO confusing in SO many ways...You mind explaining that without YOUR opinion and actual facts? I mean even though i confused myself TWICE reading what you had to say (Don't take it in a wrong way i LOVE your opinion)but it made NO sense!
Mono No Aware and Rinoa-Ultimecia
One topic that, curiously, I have trouble finding discussions about is how Ultimecia's goal of Time Compression conflicts with the Mono No Aware theme of the game. The beautiful sadness of things, embracing each moment knowing they are ephemeral and will pass. Time Compression seems to be the antithesis of this -- force all things to remain by freezing all of time, compressing it into a single moment that will last forever. Ultimecia, apparently, HATES the very idea of mono no aware.
Rinoa on the other hand is constantly pushing Squall to embrace mono no aware -- to not let the best moments of his life slip by (e.g. the FH concert). That would seem to be an argument AGAINST R=U because Rinoa and Ultimecia are on opposite ends of the philosophy.
But does Rinoa really embrace the now, appreciate the moment as something that will be lost?
"Everyone's tempo seems to pick up and... ...I get left behind. I try to catch up, but it's no use... How far is everyone going? I can't hear anyone... Once I catch up, I wonder... Is everyone safe? Will they welcome me with open arms?......Is everyone ok?"
"I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I want to stay here with you..."
A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers. If Ultimecia, as her name might imply, is "the end of a process", i.e. the end of the succession, then she cannot die. There are no known sorceresses by the end of disc 3, except for Rinoa and Ultimecia. So for Rinoa to NOT be Ultimecia, there would have to be a successor. What would happen if Rinoa cannot find a successor, as time marches toward the future she doesn't want? When she gets left behind?
(I personally agree with others that R=U was an early plot point that got rejected. Quite possibly, someone like Nomura or Kitase wanted it, but a superior like Kitase or Sakaguchi did not. Japan, as I understand, has a culture of deferring strongly to authority and it wouldn't surprise me if when the idea got shot down, it got buried.)