Forum:US/UK English

Forums: Index > The Labyrinth of Time > US/UK English

I fervently adhere to the credo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." This refers specifically to the conflict between usage of US or UK English, or any other variant for that matter. Though apparently, the policy is to use US English, I would like to make the point that

BOTH USAGES ARE CORRECT.

Now, were this a specifically English or American site, I would not be making this argument. Final Fantasy, however, is not specific to any country and therefore is not subject to a particular spelling convention. In fact, this is similar to debates over Aeris/Aerith, Cain/Kain, Tella/Tellah, etc. They are all correct with respect to different versions. I would therefore like to make the point that it is a massive waste of time to go around editing spelling because it doesn't comply with the version you're used to. In fact, you'll just end up pissing off other users. I'm no admin, but I would strongly discourage editors whose mission is to change one correct spelling to another on pain of being reverted.

Just saying.

--Haveanicedays 22:22, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't it agreed that the Wiki use American English, because the series are first localized for NA? ^BLUER一番 22:28, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

...Yeah. We've had this policy for awhile now. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 22:29, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but it really doesn't matter, they're both correct versions of English. It's not constructive at all. --Haveanicedays 22:35, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Have a look of this: Project:About. I'm a British person, yet this site uses American English as its main language. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 22:37, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, our official language is American image, which is important in cases like "List of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Armor". Yes, it is rather an odd idea to make it one's mission to Americanize spelling across the wiki, but if someone wants to do it... no one's stopping them. Remember to leave userspace, walkthroughspace, and user comments alone, though. 8bit BlackMage 22:41, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm American myself, I just happen to think that it's an epic waste of time, given that such edits aren't constructive and emphasize form over substance. As someone who writes to and addresses Brits and Americans interchangeably, I don't care anymore. Then again, if I'm alone in my opinion, then by all means, continue. --Haveanicedays 22:44, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm neither American nor British, and have used both English interchangeably before the policy was stated like so, in the beginning nobody cared about these details as long as the articles are written. Now that they are, people nitpick on more finer stuff. This is the result. ^BLUER一番 22:53, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. --Haveanicedays 22:58, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't go around changing proper English spellings to US spellings for two reasons: Firstly, I sometimes don't even know that there is a US variation of the spelling (and, because of this, I am guilty of using proper English spellings on the wiki) and the second reason is that every time I do it, a part of me dies. Even so, I do believe that we should keep to one language, even if I have to concede that we use US English, rather than proper English. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 11:21, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


		Werefang - "I? I am a monument to all your sins." TALK - 13:28, August 13, 2010 (UTC)- Abyss



		Actually H.aN.D. each language is only correct in their respective countries. I type "arse" in my American computer and I get a red underline. "Armour," "colour" and a number of other "proper" English terms are also wrong in American English. The fact is, the English language versions of the game goes through America first. I don't know if the language is further localized in the UK, Jeppo may need to inform us if "Iron Armor" is officially "Iron Armour" in the Kingdom, (I find that unlikely since Diablo, an appearant Scot, has expressed dislike for American accented Dalmascans, suggesting that the English translation is not uniquely different between the US and UK, though that isn't the best example considering that Archadians are already English) but American English seems to be the more official version used in the FF franchise (though if you are looking for a truely official language, it would be Japanese). Anyway, that's just my reasoning on the issue. All arguement is superfluous considering that the rules state that American English is the official language of this wiki. If someone has an issue with that, feel free to make an English English FF wiki, since they are in fact different languages in spite of how similar they are.

To answer Werefang's question, the spellings vary by game. In FFVII they didn't make any attempt to change the spellings from American to English. In FFVIII and IX, they made some attempt in changing the spellings for the PAL release, but it was, as us Brits say, a half-arsed job. They didn't change them all. In FFX, all the written words were changed, but the spoken words were not (I have heard Tidus say "Mom" instead of "Mum" a few times). Square's best attempt at localising was in FFXII. I haven't seen any American spellings at all. But in FFXIII they fell into old habits and didn't attempt to localise it for us Brits at all. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 16:18, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I think all dialects of English are acceptable on this wiki. People are talking about how we should stick to one language: we are. British English, American English, Canadian English, and others (such as Malaysian) are all one language. They are simply dialects with minute differences. If I were to spell a word in the British, Canadian, or American way every speaker of English would understand what they are talking about with only a few slang exceptions (we shouldn't use slang on the wiki anyways). I could say "center" or "centre", "Americanize" or "Americanise", and even change those quotations to the English format and it would still be readable for everyone. Without question, this wouldn't be a wiki for everybody if we excluded certain types of English. ScatheMote 18:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel ^TALK

_{02:21, August 16, 2010 (UTC)}

We use American English. For those people who would seek to say proper English, as though there is something inherently more correct about the English way of spelling anything, I will offer you some enlightenment. The United States gained independence (1776-1783) prior to any attempt to standardize spelling in the English language, and while the efforts were more-or-less contemporary (mid-19th century) with one another, there was no easy method of exchange, especially with a country that was not always considered our ally. There is nothing more sacred about British English versus American English where spelling is concerned.


		Mirrorshard Sceada ^{— 09:53, August 17, 2010 (UTC)} "You used to be too broken to talk back." Vanitas, Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep A l'Cie's Diary - FFTA2 Walkthrough - Lindblum Tourism Office http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z411/Sceada/kafrahead_15px.png



		TA is right. There is no real proper english. However, that's not the question here: It's about whether we should use UK or US English. And while it is said, that American English is to be used, I don't think it really matters. As long as it is readable, and one can understand, what is meant, every English is acceptable in my eyes. After all, what counts is the information, right? So, either way should be fine, right?


		Diamond Dragoon - Dragon Knights do it in midair. TALK - 10:13, August 17, 2010 (UTC)



		I think it's also a case of whether us British folk are aware of American spelling. For example, I know about Armour and Armor, but I didn't realise the American spelling of Sulphur was Sulfur until I was told by a college tutor. I also think that people on the Wiki should be free to use whichever version of English they wish, but if someone wants to go and change all my filthy english spelling to American English, I'm all for it, as long as they keep off my userpage and walkthroughs :)


		Jeppo TALK - 10:45, August 17, 2010 (UTC)



		I call it "Proper" English because we invented the bloody language! If you don't like it, tough. I still think the wiki should use American English, though, if only because more people speak American English than Proper English. I've actually got a funny story associated with the word "sulphur". While at University we had a friendly contest between us and some American exchange students to see who was smartest. The British students won once the professors agreed that "those yanks can't even spell 'sulphur' correctly".

Okay. Here's a few things:

List of Final Fantasy Armor - these are the articles that have cemented the priority of American English. When articles were created that used "Armour", they were moved for consistency.
Gilgamesh (Final Fantasy IV) and Celes Chere - these articles are not called "Gil Turtle (Final Fantasy IV)" and "Celes Chère" despite these being more... appropriate names for these article. Both are updated Euro translations after the US release and not language differences. Now if we use the American names... we should surely use US English.
Consistency. The wiki strives for consistency. We're told where to bold things, and where to use italics, how tables should be formatted, and that there shouldn't be a comma when seperating Japanese and Romaji. Extra "u"s in words is just as important.
VII and XIII use US English. VII being the most popular FF game, and XIII being the latest. They were actually the only games I paid attention to the English used in. And I'm saying we should base our decision on that. What I'm saying is they don't even do UK translations all the time.

So, saying "Aeris's armour" is completely wrong since there is no armour in that game at all. US release prioritises over Europe, which prioritises over Japanese or fan-translations. Although our rules on that is pretty undefined. Adamantoise (Before Crisis) isn't called "Adamantaimai (Before Crisis)", and Final Fantasy Legends: Hikari to Yami no Senshi isn't "Final Fantasy Legends: Warriors of Light and Darkness".

So if we use the US translation names, over the more recent Euro translations, it makes so much more sense to use US English.

But the argument is "it doesn't matter". And I completely disagree. Consistency does matter. 88.108.140.26 14:40, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

TacticAngel ^TALK

_{21:58, August 18, 2010 (UTC)}

Curiously enough, I am also somewhat involved in Warhammer 40,000, which is published entirely in British English. I have always tried to use the British spelling when I was aware of it while posting on the subject of 40k. I'm not sure what the problem is here. The games are localized for Americans (for no other reason than there are more of us) and we should use American English because the games generally do.

@JBed: Ironically, the quotation style you used is British, not American. Yuanchosaan 08:13, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know Americans used a different quotation style. What do they use? Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 08:34, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Here's an example of us not actually knowing the American way of things, I didn't know this either. So I reinforce my point that it should be personal choice. Diamond Dragoon 08:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

But this isn't your personal wiki. 88.108.104.245 11:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

It isn't the USA's personal Wiki either, it's everyone's Wiki. Diamond Dragoon 11:03, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

So we're going to have sentences that use UK English, swiftly followed by a sentence that uses US English? Do you know how bad that looks? Consistency exists for a reason. 88.108.104.245 11:05, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

The differences aren't that great for it to look like a total mess, but my point is that I don't know the American spelling of every word I use, so it can't be helped that I write in British English, except for the obvious ones I know like Armor. Diamond Dragoon 11:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Then either use a US spellchecker or don't worry about it. We have editors who can change it for you. Of course, it will probably take years for it to be changed after you insert it because editors won't see it, but with a rule in place it means we can have a consistency. Not worrying means no one will ever have a need to change it and there will never be a consistency. Having the rule means we know what the correct version of the spelling/grammar the wiki should use. 88.108.104.245 11:12, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should have an encouragement that the Wiki should be in American English, but not a rule to write it that way. This way, people can write in American English to the best of their ability, and anything not noticed can be corrected by other editors without fuss and argument. Diamond Dragoon 11:15, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

In actual fact, the Americans have screwed over my grammar so much, I don't know what's right anymore. Plus I've never been taught properly. I assume the comma/stop would go inside the quotation in US then? Or is it something else? I'm a UK English writer, however I use US words in my articles. My knowledge on US grammar isn't the best, I'll admit. But we do have US editors who can change it if they see it's wrong. 88.108.104.245 11:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I personally believe the differences between both versions of english unrrelevant. For example, in my mother tongue there's the problem of European and Brazilian Portuguese, which have enormous vocabulary differences and notorious grammar changes. If the difference was something like that, I'd reconsider a strict following of either one of the versions, but in this case, I don't think we need to be that strict. - Henry acores ^ 14:41, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

So back to square one, then? Back to the days when English is English and nobody cares about it being British or American as long as you get your point across? ^BLUER一番 16:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

In mainspace, use American spelling when you know how to. "Armour" is probably the most common difference, and if for some reason mainspace needs to talk about element number 16, please use "sulfur". As an American chemist, I will be eternally grateful. :P 8bit BlackMage 16:39, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Armour isn't the most common, it's just prominent for being an in-game noun and therefore used in page titles. Colour needs to be used a lot whenever describing the appearance of the subject, and words like utlise, and a number of other "ise"/"ize"s... 88.108.131.135 17:24, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

For Page titles that could have different spellings, redirects should be created to redirect to the American spelling. For example, Armour Break redirects to Armour Break, Paralyse should redirect to Paralyze and so on. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 20:34, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

"Armour Break" should redirect to itself? Armageddon11!

21:12, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that he meant "Armour Break" redirects to "Armor Break". Diamond Dragoon 21:15, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

He's so British he can't even bring himself to spell it the American way. 88.108.131.135 22:05, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


		Diamond Dragoon - Dragon Knights do it in midair. TALK - 22:08, August 19, 2010 (UTC)



		This discussion is getting a bit out of hand. We need an admin to confirm this, squabbling between ourselves won't solve any of it.

A brilliant suggestion, if it wasn't for the fact the admin base is composed of users from all different walks of life. Being Scottish, I use British spellings, but there are more American admins than British ones (I believe I'm the only one actually. Faethin, Bluer and Yuan are the other ones who aren't from America).

Long story shot, the majority of the admins are going to say American, and so would I, because I can't be bothered fighting against the tide of American users who want to use their spellings. Plus as TA pointed out, the series is translated into American English.

And maybe I'm imagining things, but didn't we have this discussion years ago? Diablocon 22:22, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


		Diamond Dragoon - Dragon Knights do it in midair. TALK - 22:24, August 19, 2010 (UTC)



		I don't know, I joined the Wiki a few weeks ago, so I haven't looked through all the old discussions. I would suggest a vote, but that's probably not a very good idea.

TacticAngel ^TALK

_{00:11, August 20, 2010 (UTC)}

For the record, I have no great preference between American and British versions of our language. I do a pretty poor job spelling in either. Its simply not my forte. My preference for American English here is due to the games being translated into American English, just like my preference for Warhammer 40,000 would be for British English, since its written by Brits.

PS: I almost feel like banning Diamond Dragoon for a few days just to remind him I am an admin.

Diablo is correct; we've had this discussion multiple times now. While/whilst accumulating past and present users'/users's opinions, we've learnt/learned nothing from this. When will we realise/realize (by the way, -ize is not an Americanism) that everything is impossibly confused, and the userbase does/do not recognise/recognize the majority of the differences? Could Johnson and Webster hear us, they'd gain a horrible complexion (complection? Uncommon even in the US - and why?)(?). I'm sceptical/skeptical that we'll ever do so; each side just launch/launches their counter-attacks/counterattacks and disregard(s) the other, fuelling/fueling a battle that will last for ever/forever, with no fulfilment/fulfillment. Will the light of acceptance ever be lighted/lit? I protest (against) this senseless waste - what's the sense of "this," or "this", can you say(?)! Can't we move forward/forwards? You do the maths/math.

Be honest: how many of those differences would you have noticed if I hadn't emphasised them? Which are British, and which American? Yuanchosaan 01:59, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


		Deadlyslashsword - +It takes disaster to learn a lesson, but you're going to make it through the darkest nights+ TALK - 03:02, August 20, 2010 (UTC) - Some people betray and cause treason...we're gonna make everything alright.



		All of them, but that's only because spelling is my forte. However many I would have noticed, my stance hasn't changed. The UK spellings do not bother me, and I truly don't believe that anything should, or even could be done to provoke a change in policy, much less enforce without incurring the ire of the PALers. It's quite an unfeasible idea.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/bluerfn/occu-27.png


		Ser Blue says at 04:09, August 20, 2010 (UTC)



		I am closing the discussion because ~~I'm an ass~~ it's been meandering for a while now. Long story short, the stance of this Wiki over the language and spelling is clear: it uses American English because the games series are first released for the North American market. But, users are not compelled to be spellcheckers, and they doing so is voluntary and of their own risk. Edit wars will result in page locks. Vandalism and bad faith will be dealt with appropriately.

Let me just reiterate my opinion...I don't care. If it's correct in any form of English, that's fine. People should a.) stop being so nitpicky about which spelling convention is used and b.) not insult one another because they use a different form of spelling. By the way, Jeppo, you didn't invent the language, your ancestors did. You probably wouldn't want much to do with them; they were probably either Roman imperialist SOBs who persecuted the indigenous people, or the aforementioned indigenous people (whom consequently were not the inventors, the Romans were). Let me remind you that English started as a pidgin language from Latin...

Also, me no understand 'bloody yanks'. Actually I do, but in American English, it means that you pulled someone's hair really hard :P --Haveanicedays 05:09, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


		Diamond Dragoon - Dragon Knights do it in midair. TALK - 11:24, August 20, 2010 (UTC)



		I just want to make it clear that whatever the policy is, I'll follow it, but the forums are here for users to voice their opinion. And banning me to remind me that you're an admin wouldn't have done much good, because I don't know who is an admin and who isn't. I didn't join the Wiki to look for admins (or become one). EDIT: I've also decided to stop contributing to this "discussion", not because I feel like I'm losing, but because I feel it's slipped nicely into the "argument" category, and since the majority of my edits here are on my Walkthtoughs and the Forum (both places where the form of English used doesn't matter). When contributing to the mainspace I'll use US English where I can, but don't expect me to know every spelling difference.

I'd just like to state:

US English is our chosen language over UK English not because it's what most of our userbase speak. Using "Because I speak in UK English" would be a poor argument against "The FF series is first translated to US English and only on a few occasions given half-translated UK English releases.
I will accept that people don't know all the US spellings of UK words, and grammar, so I'm not really bothered if UK English speakers don't write in US English. However, it should be known that the wiki will aim to change it for you.
If we use US English as our language, we should avoid all need for edit conflicts. Before, our rule was "whatever was there first", which is silly. It means that a UK English and US English can collaborate on an article, and it would have massive inconsistencies in the language. But we weren't allowed to make the page consistent. If someone changes US English to UK English, than they should be reverted, and given the appropriate evidence (usually a link to Project:About) -- there should be no need for edit wars, and if there is, well if the user changing it to UK English without good justification (the only one would be "this in-game element is spelt this way in the US English version of the game") then they shall be warned, and then they shall be blocked for a short time. The wiki tells them they're doing it wrong, they know they're doing it wrong, they get blocked.
UK English is the original form of English. Who cares where it came from? The US adopted the language, and then changed it. Therefore the original complete version of the English language (although it still gets added too and stuff) is the English one. 88.108.87.26 11:56, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

JBed explained it perfectly. Locking thread. 8bit BlackMage 14:34, August 21, 2010 (UTC)