Forum:Titled characters

Forums: Index > The Labyrinth of Time > Titled characters

Finished?

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 02:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
		This has been "done" for about a week now, but I'm just bumping this to say that I think I've moved all the requisite character titles with the help of several other users. You can view the list here; please note that some titles have been expunged and that some have been retained. If anyone sees a stray dignitary position or questions the moving/remaining of any titles, please comment here or on that list's talk page. Thanks!

Initiation

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 05:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		Comrade Faethin and I have noticed the debate over using certain epithets to name characters on our pages, such as the now de re-titled Marcel Funebris. Thanks to users for pointing out the discrepancies and kind of providing a catalyst for this proposal, by raising issues on the Confessor's, Fiona's, and other character's talk pages. (ILHI is proud now XD) I have a few suggestions as to how we may sort this out, revolving around sorting names by types of titles. Final Fantasy Tactics characters keep their formal titles. There is a log in the game that clearly defines each character and lists them with their full name and title. Judges keep their title. We are not naming Judge Gabranth <SPOILERZ!!!> "Noah fon Ronsenburg", nor the crazy dual-sword guy simply "Bergan", nor Judgemaster Cid simply "Cid". These two rules (and perhaps more that can be thought of later) take precedence over the next and rather large mandate: Miscellaneous titles, particularly those that are derived from royalty that change titles over the course of the game, are removed. This means no Princess in Princess Sara, no Queen in Queen Brahne Alexandros. As an example, the latter would be moved to "Brahne Raza Alexandros XVI". General Beatrix is kind of difficult to determine, not sure on that. If we do use a title that falls outside these boundaries, we need to make sure it is used more often than not when referring to characters. Again, Beatrix somewhat makes this rule murky. Please add any comments or possible additions to this proposal.

		Master Conjurer — (talk) 06:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		I am happy to see a decision. Before ILHI and I shout, "Take it to the MoS!" I would request that #4's "more often than not" be a phrase at least closer to "always." My opinion is that we need the rules to be as close to Boolean (all or nought) as possible.

Misters and Missuses should be the only exception IMO. And even then, I'm only saying that because Mr. Monkey MUST keep his pagename (Unless the wiki decides to use my favourite ext.abbv. policy) because his surname isn't actually Monkey. Actually, in the case of everyone else without a first name, just their surname is fine.

I still vote for the removal of Judge and Judgemasters. The Judges are called by their surname in boss battles I believe, which means it's fine for the developers to call them that. In the case of Gabranth....... Wait a second? Why is he called Gabranth? Surely he should be Judge Rosenburg or whatever? I know, that would be SPOILERISH as they try to hide the relation, but seriously? Is the Judge naming policy their surname? Anyway, in the case of Gabranth, he should be called "Gabranth", just like Golbez isn't called "Theodor Harvey".

Anyway, requesting "Edea Kramer" move to "Edea" and requesting "Raine Loire" move to "Raine". These names are the most spoilerish on the wiki. And I'm sure there are probably a few other cases where there are spoilerish redirects where two different people are actually the same person. I vaguely remember something somewhere in the Tactics series.  ILHI ^{14:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)}

		Pikmin Master - No matter my strength, I will still be loyal! TALK - {{{time}}}
		...This may be a bit crazy, but how about... Leave Judge Gabranth as he normally is and make a new article about "Noah fon Ronsenburg" from before he was known as Judge Gabranth. This is like Wikipedia having seperate articles for Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy181/ScatheMote/AnotherSmug.png

		ScatheMote - 15:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		But the Noah article would be very, very, short. Keep it as it is.

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 18:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		I am not sure about XII Judges using their surnames in their titles. Noah fon Ronsenburg picked "Gabranth" because it was his mother's maiden name and he wished to leave his past behind. This is kind of a surname.... as for Zargabaath, Drace, and the others, I don't know. Ultimania anyone? @ILHI: I don't understand your analogy between Golbez and Gabranth. If we remove "Judge" and leave "Gabranth", his real name is still hidden. We have nothing to move Golbez to but "Theodor Harvey", because he has not been given a title such as "Dark Chancellor Golbez". I actually kind of like the idea of taking away Loire and Kramer from Raine and Edea. This means Garnet gets to keep her title and there won't be any musings about moving her to Dagger :D Back on the titling issue and Rule #4: When some titles are used to indicate an honorable position, superiors, inferiors, and enemies may choose if they wish to sue the title or not. Brahne does not bother calling her most famous knight "General Beatrix", but lower soldiers do, and the protagonists somewhat on and off.

I'm saying we wouldn't move Gabranth to Noah because we haven't moved Golbez to Theodor.

I'm still in support of dropping all titles.

And what do you mean by Garnet? Why does removing the surnames from Loire and Kramer from them two means Garnet gets to keep her title?  ILHI ^{18:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)}

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 19:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		I would be in favor of removing the titles as well. For the Judge issue, remove the title, as I recall in XII Gabranth is usually called just "Gabranth". But if we have last names, they should be kept, like Edea and Raine. Gabranth and Golbez are different because they are most often referred to by their aliases, in-game that is.

		Master Conjurer — (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		I agree as well with the removal of all titles, but with the keeping of all surnames and "actual" names. I think Golbez should be under Theodore Harvey.

		BlueHighwind Q? 19:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC) TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		EDIT CONFLICTER GETS TO DIE NOW: Drake, the Gabranth issue is only in his battle name. And that's probably more of a space issue than anything else. As for Judge names, I have no clue where 8bit thought up that maiden name story. If there even is any naming pattern behind Judge names, it doesn't matter because it was never mentioned in FFXII. This isn't a plot hole, this is just a missing detail.

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 19:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
		*rings buzzer* I should get a YouTube clip of that. Wrong, Blue. Drace, Vayne, and in one scene even Basch, refer to him as "Gabranth", no title, several times. By comparison, he's called "Judge Gabranth" only twice, by Al-Cid and Vaan once each. "Basch" is called "Judge Magister Gabranth" a few times in the ending as well, though in the context of the scene it's inapplicable since everyone uses their official names and titles in it (ie, Ashe uses her full name too).

		BlueHighwind Q? 23:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC) TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		I guess the point I'm really trying to make here is that IT DOESN'T MATTER. You're not making a mountain out of a moehill, you're making a mountain out of NOTHING. How pathetic are we that we even need to discuss titles with this much depth? Just go with whatever feels the most natural to the character. Must we have a rule for everything? Of course we do, because we are a gaggle of diseased robots that cannot function without specific instructions from the hive mind.

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 01:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
		@Blue: Taken from Judge Gabranth's page: During the invasion, Basch fled their hometown, to the Dalmasca, while Noah moved with his sickly mother to Archadia, her homeland. There, he adopted his mother's surname Gabranth, and joined the Archadian Military. Now, I didn't add that in, but I'm assuming it's correct. That's why I asked "Ultimania anyone?" @MC: That would be rather spoilerish... you would know Cecil and Golbez are brothers right off the bat. Should we move Garnet to "Sarah", since that is her real name? @ILHI: No, I don't think we should move Gabranth to Noah, nor Golbez to Theodor. Also, I didn't mean Garnet should get to keep her "Princess", I meant that she is "Garnet til Alexandros XVII". Not Dagger. @Drake: Hmm, you do have a point. Why shouldn't we call Gabranth "Judge Magister Gabranth" instead of just "Judge"? I think there's the problem of Judgemaster Cid; without his title he's just Cid... can we make an exception there? @Blue again: If you don't care, don't say anything. The point of this thread was so that the admins do not just give orders to the "diseased robots" and name pages as we wish. As you can see, I'm trying to be open here. Perhaps I should take your advice and totally disregard this issue, wait for users to make their own personal moves, and then rollback any that I don't like. </sarcasm> Your "goes with whatever feels the most natural" whim is nebulous.

		BlueHighwind Q? 12:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC) TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		I never said anything about the "admins" being the problem. I know your powers are minor. I said "hive mind". As in all of us. As for "whatever feels the most natural", perhaps it should be clearer. First of all, always having titles is stupid. And never having is equally as stupid. Both are completely arbitrary designations and most likely would take away from the best possible names for the articles (if such a things exists, I'm doubtful, but this thread seems to be assuming so): If we never have titles: "Princess Sarah", the only name she is ever called in FFI, would become "Sarah (Final Fantasy)". If you so desperately need a rule, make sure monarchs and nobility keep their titles. If the title changes, just keep the one they are most easily associated with. Or the least spoilish. ("Princess Garnet" would not become "Queen Garnet" then.) If we always have titles: "Cecil Harvey" becomes "Lord Captain Cecil Harvey", which is just silly. He's called that once by a Red Wing that doesn't even have a name. He's just called "Cecil" most of the time. Also, on the topic of Beatrix, I think she's most commonly called simply "Beatrix", without any title. I'm not sure there. General Leo, on the other hand, is pretty much always called "General Leo". And let us remember something important. Even if users constantly move the articles according to personal whim, its not gonna change anything. If Garnet goes from Princess to Queen to nothing, it won't matter. The quality of articles is determined not by which specific thing its called, but by the content. Garnet could turn into "Dagger (Final Fantasy IX)" and still, the article would remain unchanged in quality.

"The quality of articles is determined not by which specific thing it's called, but by the content"

Exactly. That one line kinda makes your entire argument above redundant. Cecil Harvey shouldn't become "Lord Captain Cecil Harvey" nor should "General Leo Christophe" become "Leo Christophe", but then you say it doesn't actually matter.

A naming policy saying "no titles" will stop ALL discussions over what pagename a character should use and stop all headaches. The only arguments would be guys like EdGe, Golbez, Gabranth and Balthier.  ILHI ^{17:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)}

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 04:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
		I'm kind of leaning towards ILHI's view. We need exceptions in some cases as BlueH pointed out, like with Judgemaster Cid. Still, though, there are some characters that just don't seem right without a title. And Tactics characters need to stay with their position.

No they don't. None of them do. Their title is mentioned in their article, all links are unaffected ([[Cid Randell|Judgemaster Cid]]). Their full title will still redirect to their article. Their is no problem. Titles in texts won't change, titles in their pagenames will.  ILHI ^{13:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)}

		BlueLionheart - "Be careful, dear friend, lest you fall into the endless ocean of stars..." - 水風死 TALK - 18:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
		This is the dumbest topic I think we've had since forum changes were blocked from the RC. Who cares about this kind of thing, anyway? Anyways, the only people who should have titles in their page names are Judges, monarchs, and people like General Beatrix, who I don't believe have first names to put. The others, like Cecil, for example, who have military titles, should have them put in the little table thingy that's on their page.

No you're the dumbest conversation. Why is it dumb? Oh please tell me, why? It's a discussion that has sprung up loads of times that has never been answered. It will also result in changing loads of articles. It's important.  ILHI ^{17:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)}

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 02:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
		Oh, right. I forgot about Randell. Guess "Judgemaster" wouldn't be needed anyways. I like the idea that full titles will redirect to the shortened page, and the character's full title will be said and emboldened in the introduction. We should just cull all titles unless it is absolutely necessary for identifaction, or it helps in avoiding tags. I don't see the problem with Sarah (Final Fantasy), since the only other Sarah is the real name of Garnet. Let's have Princess Sarah for the FFI character, Princess Sara for the FFIII character, and Sarah be a disambiguation page to the I and IX characters. Back to the larger issue, yes, this is a case-by-case basis, but we should avoid most disputes by just removing titles where they aren't "needed" (yes, collective conscience). Let issues rise up where they will, but we need to do something. So yes, let's start effacing titles, and people bring up issues where they find them, hmm? I'm still floating this as an idea ^^

		Yuan 翠珊 — 07:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC) "He wants to write a love song / An anthem of forgiving / A manual for living with defeat"
		We are including FFT in this, yes? If so, let's begin! I think there will be quite a few redirects to be deleted first before we start moving, though.

I hate missing out on a big one. So what we are essentially doing is, tagging certain characters with their official titles from the game, but not actually in the article name, but not doing so with others? Am I correct in this statement? If not feel free to correct me in a dignified and intelligent manner, i have not been keeping tabs with this thread and wikia politics and policies are harder for me to comprehend then sanskrit and humanity in general, so before I start doing anything, I would like to know whats acceptable so I can avoid getting my head bit off. Oh, and can anyone confirm 8bit's Gabranth thing? Or was it just from the ultimania? I had wondered where that name came from...Exdeath64 08:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 20:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
		Yeah, for the most part, characters have already been tagged with a full title, both in the pagename and in the introduction. We're going to remove most of those from the pagename, with a few exceptions that will pop up. To make it consistent, the Tactics titles will need to go from the pagename as well. They'll still be present in the intro, though.

10-4 taicho. Exdeath64 01:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 18:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
		Just in case people haven't noticed, moving has already begun. Please see User:8bit_BlackMage/Clockwork to see details for each character.