This has been "done" for about a week now, but I'm just bumping this to say that I think I've moved all the requisite character titles with the help of several other users. You can view the list here; please note that some titles have been expunged and that some have been retained. If anyone sees a stray dignitary position or questions the moving/remaining of any titles, please comment here or on that list's talk page. Thanks!
Comrade Faethin and I have noticed the debate over using certain epithets to name characters on our pages, such as the now
I have a few suggestions as to how we may sort this out, revolving around sorting names by types of titles.
I am happy to see a decision. Before ILHI and I shout, "Take it to the MoS!" I would request that #4's "more often than not" be a phrase at least closer to "always." My opinion is that we need the rules to be as close to Boolean (all or nought) as possible.
Misters and Missuses should be the only exception IMO. And even then, I'm only saying that because Mr. Monkey MUST keep his pagename (Unless the wiki decides to use my favourite ext.abbv. policy) because his surname isn't actually Monkey. Actually, in the case of everyone else without a first name, just their surname is fine.
I still vote for the removal of Judge and Judgemasters. The Judges are called by their surname in boss battles I believe, which means it's fine for the developers to call them that. In the case of Gabranth....... Wait a second? Why is he called Gabranth? Surely he should be Judge Rosenburg or whatever? I know, that would be SPOILERISH as they try to hide the relation, but seriously? Is the Judge naming policy their surname? Anyway, in the case of Gabranth, he should be called "Gabranth", just like Golbez isn't called "Theodor Harvey".
Anyway, requesting "Edea Kramer" move to "Edea" and requesting "Raine Loire" move to "Raine". These names are the most spoilerish on the wiki. And I'm sure there are probably a few other cases where there are spoilerish redirects where two different people are actually the same person. I vaguely remember something somewhere in the Tactics series. ILHI 14:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
...This may be a bit crazy, but how about...Leave Judge Gabranth as he normally is and make a new article about "Noah fon Ronsenburg" from before he was known as Judge Gabranth. This is like Wikipedia having seperate articles for Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.
But the Noah article would be very, very, short. Keep it as it is.
I am not sure about XII Judges using their surnames in their titles. Noah fon Ronsenburg picked "Gabranth" because it was his mother's maiden name and he wished to leave his past behind. This is kind of a surname.... as for Zargabaath, Drace, and the others, I don't know. Ultimania anyone?
@ILHI: I don't understand your analogy between Golbez and Gabranth. If we remove "Judge" and leave "Gabranth", his real name is still hidden. We have nothing to move Golbez to but "Theodor Harvey", because he has not been given a title such as "Dark Chancellor Golbez".
I actually kind of like the idea of taking away Loire and Kramer from Raine and Edea. This means Garnet gets to keep her title and there won't be any musings about moving her to Dagger :DBack on the titling issue and Rule #4: When some titles are used to indicate an honorable position, superiors, inferiors, and enemies may choose if they wish to sue the title or not. Brahne does not bother calling her most famous knight "General Beatrix", but lower soldiers do, and the protagonists somewhat on and off.
I'm saying we wouldn't move Gabranth to Noah because we haven't moved Golbez to Theodor.
I'm still in support of dropping all titles.
And what do you mean by Garnet? Why does removing the surnames from Loire and Kramer from them two means Garnet gets to keep her title? ILHI 18:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I would be in favor of removing the titles as well. For the Judge issue, remove the title, as I recall in XII Gabranth is usually called just "Gabranth". But if we have last names, they should be kept, like Edea and Raine. Gabranth and Golbez are different because they are most often referred to by their aliases, in-game that is.
I agree as well with the removal of all titles, but with the keeping of all surnames and "actual" names. I think Golbez should be under Theodore Harvey.
EDIT CONFLICTER GETS TO DIE NOW: Drake, the Gabranth issue is only in his battle name. And that's probably more of a space issue than anything else.As for Judge names, I have no clue where 8bit thought up that maiden name story. If there even is any naming pattern behind Judge names, it doesn't matter because it was never mentioned in FFXII. This isn't a plot hole, this is just a missing detail.
I should get a YouTube clip of that. Wrong, Blue. Drace, Vayne, and in one scene even Basch, refer to him as "Gabranth", no title, several times. By comparison, he's called "Judge Gabranth" only twice, by Al-Cid and Vaan once each. "Basch" is called "Judge Magister Gabranth" a few times in the ending as well, though in the context of the scene it's inapplicable since everyone uses their official names and titles in it (ie, Ashe uses her full name too).
I guess the point I'm really trying to make here is that IT DOESN'T MATTER. You're not making a mountain out of a moehill, you're making a mountain out of NOTHING. How pathetic are we that we even need to discuss titles with this much depth? Just go with whatever feels the most natural to the character. Must we have a rule for everything? Of course we do, because we are a gaggle of diseased robots that cannot function without specific instructions from the hive mind.
@Blue: Taken from Judge Gabranth's page: During the invasion, Basch fled their hometown, to the Dalmasca, while Noah moved with his sickly mother to Archadia, her homeland. There, he adopted his mother's surname Gabranth, and joined the Archadian Military.
Now, I didn't add that in, but I'm assuming it's correct. That's why I asked "Ultimania anyone?"
@MC: That would be rather spoilerish... you would know Cecil and Golbez are brothers right off the bat. Should we move Garnet to "Sarah", since that is her real name?
@ILHI: No, I don't think we should move Gabranth to Noah, nor Golbez to Theodor. Also, I didn't mean Garnet should get to keep her "Princess", I meant that she is "Garnet til Alexandros XVII". Not Dagger.
@Drake: Hmm, you do have a point. Why shouldn't we call Gabranth "Judge Magister Gabranth" instead of just "Judge"? I think there's the problem of Judgemaster Cid; without his title he's just Cid... can we make an exception there?@Blue again: If you don't care, don't say anything. The point of this thread was so that the admins do not just give orders to the "diseased robots" and name pages as we wish. As you can see, I'm trying to be open here. Perhaps I should take your advice and totally disregard this issue, wait for users to make their own personal moves, and then rollback any that I don't like. </sarcasm> Your "goes with whatever feels the most natural" whim is nebulous.
I never said anything about the "admins" being the problem. I know your powers are minor. I said "hive mind". As in all of us. As for "whatever feels the most natural", perhaps it should be clearer. First of all, always having titles is stupid. And never having is equally as stupid. Both are completely arbitrary designations and most likely would take away from the best possible names for the articles (if such a things exists, I'm doubtful, but this thread seems to be assuming so):
"The quality of articles is determined not by which specific thing it's called, but by the content"
Exactly. That one line kinda makes your entire argument above redundant. Cecil Harvey shouldn't become "Lord Captain Cecil Harvey" nor should "General Leo Christophe" become "Leo Christophe", but then you say it doesn't actually matter.
A naming policy saying "no titles" will stop ALL discussions over what pagename a character should use and stop all headaches. The only arguments would be guys like EdGe, Golbez, Gabranth and Balthier. ILHI 17:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm kind of leaning towards ILHI's view. We need exceptions in some cases as BlueH pointed out, like with Judgemaster Cid. Still, though, there are some characters that just don't seem right without a title. And Tactics characters need to stay with their position.
No they don't. None of them do. Their title is mentioned in their article, all links are unaffected ([[Cid Randell|Judgemaster Cid]]). Their full title will still redirect to their article. Their is no problem. Titles in texts won't change, titles in their pagenames will. ILHI 13:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This is the dumbest topic I think we've had since forum changes were blocked from the RC. Who cares about this kind of thing, anyway?Anyways, the only people who should have titles in their page names are Judges, monarchs, and people like General Beatrix, who I don't believe have first names to put. The others, like Cecil, for example, who have military titles, should have them put in the little table thingy that's on their page.
No you're the dumbest conversation. Why is it dumb? Oh please tell me, why? It's a discussion that has sprung up loads of times that has never been answered. It will also result in changing loads of articles. It's important. ILHI 17:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, right. I forgot about Randell. Guess "Judgemaster" wouldn't be needed anyways. I like the idea that full titles will redirect to the shortened page, and the character's full title will be said and emboldened in the introduction. We should just cull all titles unless it is absolutely necessary for identifaction, or it helps in avoiding tags. I don't see the problem with Sarah (Final Fantasy), since the only other Sarah is the real name of Garnet. Let's have Princess Sarah for the FFI character, Princess Sara for the FFIII character, and Sarah be a disambiguation page to the I and IX characters.
Back to the larger issue, yes, this is a case-by-case basis, but we should avoid most disputes by just removing titles where they aren't "needed" (yes, collective conscience). Let issues rise up where they will, but we need to do something. So yes, let's start effacing titles, and people bring up issues where they find them, hmm?I'm still floating this as an idea ^^
We are including FFT in this, yes? If so, let's begin! I think there will be quite a few redirects to be deleted first before we start moving, though.
I hate missing out on a big one. So what we are essentially doing is, tagging certain characters with their official titles from the game, but not actually in the article name, but not doing so with others? Am I correct in this statement? If not feel free to correct me in a dignified and intelligent manner, i have not been keeping tabs with this thread and wikia politics and policies are harder for me to comprehend then sanskrit and humanity in general, so before I start doing anything, I would like to know whats acceptable so I can avoid getting my head bit off. Oh, and can anyone confirm 8bit's Gabranth thing? Or was it just from the ultimania? I had wondered where that name came from...Exdeath64 08:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, for the most part, characters have already been tagged with a full title, both in the pagename and in the introduction. We're going to remove most of those from the pagename, with a few exceptions that will pop up.To make it consistent, the Tactics titles will need to go from the pagename as well. They'll still be present in the intro, though.
10-4 taicho. Exdeath64 01:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Just in case people haven't noticed, moving has already begun. Please see User:8bit_BlackMage/Clockwork to see details for each character.