Ok. following in the vein of best/worst villain/hero. I was wondering, who's everyone's hated protagonist? The only rule is that you've gotta justify your hate with at least three different reasons. Mine is:
Snow
- He whines constantly about Serah.
- He often patronises Hope. (particularly early in the game)
- He's the worst mage of the group.
Let me get this out the way before anyone else. | |||
Vaan
- Has no real reason to be in the party (Although this could be the case with at lest one character in FF games)
- Surprisingly rude. (Fran how old are you again?)
- And that stupid vest thing that he wears. And you would think that when the party has to through cold places they would replace the characters clothes, but thats never the case.
To be completely fair, that doesn't happen in pretty much any FF game & he was just asking what everyone was thinking. But my actual beef is with... | |||
Terra
Unlike Vaan, who is acknowledged as a bad character, Terra is given tons of praise that she doesn't deserve. She's better, but she's not the "great, deep protagonist" that everyone paints her to be.
- She was definitely assigned a female gender role & simply thrust into the role of main character. She muses on love, she's the chosen character to be the surrogate parent of the orphans, several characters hit on her but she's too innocent or whatever to understand their advances, it's freaking mind boggling why people think she's progressive.
- She's totally useless. As far as stats go, she's just like any other protagonist. But how often does Terra kick ass in a cutscene? Usually, she's going crazy, fleeing the party, refusing to fight, or some combination. It shouldn't have taken her more than a minute or 2 for her to get her shit together in Mobliz & realize she had to stop Kefka. Everyone else did for far less good of reasons than having to protect an entire town of orphans.
- Her transformation is retarded. She turns purple & it doubles her stats. Lamest idea for a special ability ever.
- Her storyline is so melodramatic. When it's not about her love issues, it's about her mixed parentage or the teenage pregnancy going on under her nose. It's like everyone else is in a fantasy adventure & she's stuck in a soap opera.
- She is by far the most brooding FF protagonist & she doesn't really have it that bad. She doesn't even remember being used by the Empire, so as far as she's concerned, her biggest problem is a bit of emotional confusion.
^ Basically what I was going to mention. People go nutso over her mixed-heritage like that's so darn innovative and hasn't been done to death before. Terra's like the worst aspects of every FF Female rolled into one. Glad to see people who aren't totally infatuated with her 'round here | |||
It's weird, because VI actually does have a good female lead, who is basically the main protagonist for the 2nd half. So when the discussion of VI's "first female heroine" rolls around, why is Celes so ignored? | |||
The best remedy for that is to beat Terra numerous times with Kefka in Dissidia Mog&Boko 09:58, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
Dissidia is pretty much a cure-all for FF grudges. Never quite beat Kefka? Fight him in Dissidia. Hate a certain character? Beat them up in Dissidia. Fond of those Kefka/Sephiroth debates? Pick your favorite & assault the other one repeatedly in Dissidia. | |||
Except the option isn't open to evreyone. TARDISES 17:29, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
Still, it's well worth investing in Mog&Boko 19:26, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
By that, I meant nto evreyone hsa it, duh. I don't for example. TARDISES 19:41, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
And by my comment I meant that it's worth getting it. Sorry for any confusion. Mog&Boko 20:53, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
It's not as if I don't want it or anything, OFC... TARDISES 22:54, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I really don't like Snow. That hero-thingy he goes on and on the whole game really drove me crazy | |||
Meh, I always thought Terra was one of the better characters. Her equipment selection is the best in the game and really her ability can kick some serious ass against most bosses, unlike Celes' which is useful a few times but not really. Also, you would brood a lot too if you were raised as a prisoner and slave of an evil empire and literally had no childhood or life experience and were suddenly told that everyone needed you to help save the world. Masterblaster9001 23:09, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
Agree with Masterblaster, Terra kicks ass. Since she was little she was a slave, who knows how long that slave thing was on her head it could have been her whole life which is why she questions her emotions so much. Dumb Terra haters :) Dissidian
It's kind of a moot point if she doesn't remember any of it. Her backstory is basically amnesia (which she's told will go away) & being an orphan (waah). Big whoop. The party will drop whatever actually important shit they're doing at a moment's notice just to comfort her, anyway. And as I said, in terms of stats, she's powerful, but in terms of story, she's a rather useless damsel in distress. Furthermore, while her ability is powerful, it's not very creative or interesting. And honestly, I got way more usage out of Celes. It renders magic useless in a game where magic is the ubermansch. Not to mention that doesn't address my other complaints about her. | |||
I never used runic except in the battle where it is introduced. My tactic is more "kill it before it kills me" which makes Terra more useful, despite the fact that trance never lasts at first. Storyline wise, I think the character was a good idea, but Square just went too far with it. Mysidian Nomad 20:40, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
It's not a "moot" point because she has NOTHING to remember. You also said it is basically amnesia, which will go away anyways, but like I said she has NOTHING to remember. She is basically a child in an adult's body. She knows NO emotion, none at all. The party will drop whatever "shit" they're doing to comfort her because they know that she is CRUCIAL to taking down the empire and because they're GOOD people. Another thing is she can't control her esper form at first which is why she goes berserk, she has so much power that she can't really control it all that well. Also, if her turning into her esper form in not creative or interesting I don't know what is. Zidane also goes into a "trance" but I would much rather see a purple naked girl esper than a purple glowing guy with a tail.
Concerning Celes, which I LOVE also, she was so depressed that she was about to KILL herself. Pathetic, much? Runic Vs Trance both are amazing but Terra Vs Celes, Terra would win because once Terra trances Celes can only Runic to defend against her magic but Terra can attack with BOTH magic and sword. Sure Celes can attack with both magic and sword as well but her stats don't double and if she keeps using Runic she will never win. Dissidian
See, this is why I hate these "hate" forums. Worst this, worst that, it's just a bunch of people arguing about characters they like or don't like. It's not like you can do anything about it anyway. Mysidian Nomad 02:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
I always thought this confined most of our 'least favourite character' rants to an empty space instead of clogging up the DNC etc. The reason I created this forum was because I was interested to see which protagonists were the least favourite, unlike many of the villain/hero threads with the comic reasons used in other forums. If you don't like these things then by all means don't participate. It's not a question of whether or not we can do anything about it, more like a bit of fun conversation. So many people moan about things like the price of say petrol, but we can't do anything about that. Not meaning this to be some attack for someone's opinion, more just the reasoning behind why this forum was made. Mog&Boko 15:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
So you're trying to isolate it rather than encourage it. Sorry, I misunderstood your motives Mysidian Nomad 18:30, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
That's OK, don't worry about it. Now, who else deserves the title of annoying FF playable-character? Mog&Boko 20:07, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going to bother debating this further. I played the game & heard all of its crappy excuses. Now, if you're so concerned about the logic behind peoples' positions, why don't you bother the guy who said Vaan's vest was stupid? | |||
Yeah probably because you have no rebuttal. I'm not concerned about the logic, but you're just bashing Terra. You're not just stating why you dislike her but you're actually badmouthing her and her "character". With Vaan's vest, it's just a physical thing, it's not his "character". Whatever, agree to disagree :P Dissidian
Are you high? Don't accuse me of "not having a rebuttal" & then say, "Agree to disagree." I just don't want to debate endlessly against people who refuse to accept that some people don't like their precious fucking flower, & dear God, that they might actually have legitimate reasons. Okay? | |||
I don't have a clue what's happened now really, but, character complaints generally hold more weight than "Vaan won't cover up appropriately in Paramina Rift" Mog&Boko 12:20, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
PictomancerWill - "Just another squealing fanboy slashing together unexpecting male characters " TALK - "NOW" | |||
I like Terra and all, but you have a point, Celes has the more useful ability, is extremely versatile, and almost made me cry when she attempted suicide. | |||
Aerith/Aeris
I wanted to do this from a long time and Neo was a great motivation (EPIC Terra bashing!) TenzaZangetsu 20:36, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Many people have told that she's a deep character, in what? All her story is that she bang a 1st Class and later bang the 1st Class's best friend. I never saw her doing anything else than talking to Zack, Cloud.
- She's useless. Yes, her Limits are amazing but that's that. And don't give that "She's a good mage" crap, everyone in FFVII are good mages.
- She's extremely overrate because of her death, big deal. Her death was epic but because of Sephiroth and what piss me off the most is the fact that everyone blamed Cloud for her death.
- This is what I hate the most: The fact everyone thinks she's the most beautiful girl in FFVII, why dream about her when you have someone ten times better in the same game?
This is ironic, 'cause I love Aerith. [s]I especially disagree with Point 4.[/s] Changed my mind. It's a toss-up between which looks better. | |||
-10 times better. | |||
It's fun to shun Aerith from your party! She was pretty selfish for claiming Cloud for herself, I don't care if she saw Zack in him, that's an even worse reason, "I just love you 'cause you remind me of my dead boyfriend." Yeah, cheery. That said, she was a lot more likable in Crisis Core but that was with Zack which was fine, hey that scene when Tseng has that box of letters is tragic, but she just wasn't very good in the main story. In terms of personality, Tifa was suited much more to Cloud, not all the "She's looks so much better than Aerith" rubbish, but because they're childhood friends, who as seen in several flashbacks, looked out for eachother on many occaisions. (Mind you, I shunned Tifa from my main party too) Anyway, the point is that in her death scene people always cite Sephiroth as her killer. Isn't it actually JENOVA who does this? The party haven't visited Northern crater and so dear old Sephiroth is locked up nice and safe. JENOVA is simply acting on primal survival instinct. Finish the job she started and whatnot. It was a sad scene, but not one that brought tears to your eyes. (not mine anyway) Maybe I'm missing something but, Aerith was a perfect love interest in crisis core and strangely, by the time she appeared in the original game, her part was overused before it had been first used. If nothing else I'm sure that's a record breaker. Mog&Boko 13:14, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
You're missing a lot, actually. First of all, what's this "selfish for claiming Cloud for herself" thing? They obviously had feelings for each other. Second, it's never actually stated anywhere that Aerith liked Cloud just because she reminded him of Zack. The fans just took the fact that he "reminded her of someone" & ran with it. Even if it were true, is that her fault? She didn't even know they knew each other, much less about Cloud recreating his personality after Zack. As for Tifa, let's consider the facts, here. She largely ignored Cloud, who really acted like a creepy stalker. She only started to return his crush after he tried--& failed--to save her from a collapsing bridge. You could really argue that she probably had brain damage, because suddenly her personality takes a complete 180. All of a sudden, she becomes fixated on Cloud & too shy to voice her feelings. Why? She already knows Cloud likes her. From the bridge thing, we know that she was a pretty daring girl. Now, that was the most subjective part of what you posted, so I'm not trying to change your viewpoint. All I'm saying there is that Tifa isn't the ideal romance story, either. Plus, pretty much all of the time they're together, Cloud is still focusing on Aerith. As for Crisis Core, I found that Aerith was a little bland in that game, but it was made better by Zack causing her to open up & adopt some of his traits. Seriously, people say she's better, but she comes across to me as some kind of idealistic, saintly woman figure. I find it kind of sexist that the developers & fans are starting to revision her as flawless, really. Again, this is subjective. And don't take that last part personally. Lastly, Sephiroth controls Jenova. Jenova is to Sephiroth as gun is to shooter. | |||
Damn, you completely took me apart! I will concede she's not the worst character there's ever been and maybe it's Tifa being "there" first that probably gives the whole idea anything to stand on. But when I called Aerith the "perfect love interest" I wasn't really thinking in terms of, saintly woman figure, I might have worded it badly. What I meant was that she came off better to me as she appeared in Crisis Core rather than the original, where I found her seeing too much of Zack in Cloud for comfort. Fair point she doesn't know for sure but the resemblance is uncanny. A SOLDIER 1st class, he has the Buster Sword, (which was in Zack's possession when last visiting Aerith pre-Nibelheim) hell, he even falls into her church in the same way! I'm sorry but she's either seriously special or she must have had even fleeting thoughts that something was up, yet she chose to remain silent, admittedly much of this is conjecture and guesswork but it is still logical. She could've saved us the whole trippy Mideel "finding himself" scene with Cloud if she'd confided in at least someone of the group. Sephiroth and Jenova are tricky though. Sephiroth gains his power from mako and Jenova cells (though most people agree that Jenova fuels most of his power) therefore, how do we know that it is Jenova controlling or at least influencing heavily, Sephiroth's motives and possible actions. Jenova's properties are never explicitly stated other than her cells have the innate desire to be together, which in turn requires some form of influence over said cells. Sephiroth may have tapped into this and committed the deed of topping Aerith, but Jenova may have subtly influenced this desire. Sephiroth is the clear figurehead and main force of the game, but Jenova can just as easily be his drive, again this is all guesswork and I can't pretend anything different But I hope it does put doubt into other reasonably watertight arguments against this.
So we are left with a few conclusions. Firstly, Cloud is meant to be with Aerith who just happens to be collateral in the quest to stop Sephiroth,and yet still pines for Cloud in the afterlife, despite being reunited with Zack. Yes this may be friendly reassurance from beyond the grave but it's unlikely considering that this is based on the fact that she is Cloud's love interest.
Another is that Tifa is meant to be with Cloud who still yearns after Aerith (who possibly keeps him hung up on her due to frequently reappearing to him) leaving Tifa with a childhood friend who utterly ignores her in favour of a dead girl who at least is reunited with Zack, prolonging cloud's suffering by keeping him stuck and unable to move on.
Finally is that neither is meant to be with Cloud and that he's a tale of an unlucky lover who lost someone too important to ever love again, or something like that. personally, I believe the second idea. Think what you will but hopefully this gives better reasoning than my last. And feel free to point out any flaws in this (provided there's counter reasons of course) what's the point of debating if no-one challenges you for fear of alienating you? Mog&Boko 10:21, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Square really overdosed on making Cloud & Zack similar. But even if Aerith noticed all of these similarities, I'm sure the conclusion was just too mind boggling to make. It would have probably seemed like an incredible coincidence. I tend to go with "there are some things she liked about Cloud himself, even though a lot of what she liked had to do with Zack." As for who is meant for whom, I don't think that FFVII is a "true love" type of story. I think that Cloud could have ended up with either woman & it was just a matter of circumstance that he ended up with Tifa. He could have probably even ended up with Yuffie, if he had ever shown her the slightest bit of interest. The thing about Sephiroth is the only thing I can comment on for sure. The Ultimania establishes that Sephiroth controls Jenova. As for Jenova's properties, the tape at Icicle Inn lists: Transformation, psyonic abilities, infecting other species with various bad stuff (Geostigma, the ancient transformation virus), & enhanced physical & magical abilities. Crisis Core adds the ability to take & transmit traits between organisms. It is also established that those who receive Jenova's cells gain some of its abilities, to varying extents, & SOLDIER candidates, due to strong willpower, do not have their mental states affected by it. | |||
hmm, well I guess the only puzzle left is that, if Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells before birth,how did he get the SOLDIER training? Mog&Boko 16:49, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
"After his birth, Shinra raised Sephiroth to be a super soldier, the very first SOLDIER. They told him nothing of his mother except that her name was "Jenova," and that she died during childbirth." from the Sephiroth article. | |||
Yeah so when he was being raised, how was corruption via Jenova cells avoided whilst he was undertaking SOLDIER training? There was plenty of time for her/it to take control of him and use him as a host. Mog&Boko 10:07, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
uhh... he was born very strong willed? I don't know. I was stupid and posted without seeing the context of the first question, my bad. | |||
No worries. But it does raise an interesting plot hole no? Mog&Boko 12:00, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
Jenova's will was rendered inert by the Cetra. | |||
Ramza
I hate Ramza, I want him dead!!! kuPoHunTer 14:59, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
- I hate his little stupid accent. "Hark comrades, dost whales be'th approaching!
- I hate Final Fantasy Tactics. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with A2, but the original gets me cursing my head off every ten seconds.
- At the beginning of the game his is one of like 4 squires out of a 8 man party and his sucks at being a chemist.
Ramza didn't have the stupid accent in the original, And he's one of(6) squires. | |||
Mysidian Nomad - Can't say anything without people thinking I'm crazy. TALK - 17:47, July 23, 2010 (UTC) (UTC) | |||
1.That accent was just how they talked in that era, 2.You can't hate the hero just because you hate the game, 3.Yeah, they were a bunch of squires aiming to become knights, what is your point? At least try to find good reasons. The accent, fine, whatever, but the rest suck. | |||
No one ever talked like that. That is not Old English. That is a dialect that resembles Old English that the Ivalice Alliance team made up. Also, I just want to say that the Tactics Advance games are shitty spin offs that gut the original of all of its depth. Oh, & don't get me started on the crappy storylines. We have to kill the genie thing for creating my friend's ideal world! We have to kill the giant hand that's coming from the Void! Not to mention the dumb rule mechanic or the fact that none of the Ivalice Alliance games really fit together very well. | |||
Mysidian Nomad - Can't say anything without people thinking I'm crazy. TALK - 22:06, July 23, 2010 (UTC) | |||
"They" as in the characters, not people. Which is why I considered it a legitimate argument. Despite the fact that I didn't mind it. On the note of Advance, I've only played A2 and it wasn't bad, though I prefer War of the Lions. | |||
Ah, I see. Really, I don't find a lot of these to be legitimate "arguments." Not that I really care. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I try to only retort to something when it seems to actually be missing something in its analysis. I really want to avoid that "you just didn't GET IT!" thing. | |||
Mysidian Nomad - Can't say anything without people thinking I'm crazy. TALK - 00:29, July 24, 2010 (UTC) | |||
I don't find most legitamate either. Perhaps I should have said "understandable." This particular one's reasons have almost nothing to do with the character himself and more the world or game mechanics. I just want to figure out if he's really complaining about the character or the game. | |||
You have a point, it does seem a bit general to directly associate with Ramza. Mog&Boko 10:23, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Getting in before anyone else ^_^ | |||
Template:KuPoHunter
Tidus
- A bit of an airhead.
- Whiny and repetitive (Sin's toxin this, Zanarkand that).
- That laughing scene.
NO. #2 describes most, if not all protagonists. Besides the laughing scene, Tidus wasn't that bad. | |||
PictomancerWill - "Just another squealing fanboy slashing together unexpecting male characters " TALK - "NOW" | |||
I like his Sword, and it has a cool name too me, but unless it's a slash fanfiction involving him and Wakka, i hate him. | |||