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Forums: Index > Rin's Travel Agency > Archive > Talk Template Guidelines


Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 05:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm very disappointed with the general misuse of the template I founded. I do not need to point out that other people have helped streamline it and improve its options; however, that aside, I do not like the trend towards using larger and larger images, particularly excessively tall images as well as increasing the width of the display images (since it makes the left margin all jaggy). I've changed those templates that have artificially increased size, and I intend to keep them at a uniform width until such a time as some consensus is reached. I do want to get the opinion of the users though. Should people be able to use whatever size images they want or should there be some attempt at uniformity for appearances sake?

Support guidelines for image size

  1. T·A·C·T·I·C·A·N·G·E·L
  2. I Lion Heart I
  3. That's right, I went there. Uniform image size, because I'm a uniform kind of guy. Diablocon 10:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  4. Bluer 15:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC) : I prefer standardization as well. It's how we've been holding this wiki up and maintained it to a reasonable standard. I would also prefer the image to be within the dimension so that talk templates are placed one talk bubble after the other: it looks really unique that way. As well; what matters most is the contents; the text of the talk bubble.
  5. TA made the template. It may not be his by patent, but we should try to adjust to what he wishes. I guess I would upload a leg-less Garnet if there was no other way to downsize her. 8bit 20:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  6. I prefer things to be uniform, i.e. the same. In my vision of everybody having separate sizes, it looks terrible...2127 21:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  7. Crazyswordsman: I agree with TA. Your avatar shouldn't be any taller than the height of your talk template when you write one line.

Support the use of any image size

  1. Hexed: To a reasonable level.
  2. Vanishing Star: I agree with Hexed.
  3. Henryacores: The size should be as big as it must to be understood and as small as possible. Personal preference can also influence this, as long as it does not exagerate in size. And please don't use anything other than sprites or character\enemy artworks.
  4. Faethin: Of course. Common sense above all.
  5. Azul: Everyone else pretty much said what I had to say.
  6. Drake Clawfang: As long as the image doesn't ridiculously throw the alignments of the page out of whack, go nuts. 10 pixels seems a petty change to me. The whole point of the talk bubble is to represent the one who made it.
  7. To a reasonable level. Firstly, so people have some flexibility and secondly, because you blocked Faethin over this matter before we reached concensus. That's a bit unfair, isn't it? --SCM
  8. To a reasonable level, as said above. Truly, slightly larger images don't take away from the effect. -- YuanchosaanSalutations! 06:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  9. What he said. What she said. -- N/A 10:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  10. Self-interest. My picture is too small in 50px. 60px is perfect. --BlueHighwind 14:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  11. BfD - 17:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  12. Screw conformity. Individuality and common sense rule over being 10 fricking pixels too many. There. I've said my share. --Tex HOWDY!!! 23:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
  13. Pablo I think we should have a little smaller than 8bit's Garnet.
  14. I'm normally for most types of conformity, but not this. I've tried to modify the Balthier image and it won't work for me. So to bad so sad.--Muchomas35 01:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments

TA, "uniformity for appearances sake"? There are quite a few editors who use different templates (yourself included), and I find the effect quite pleasing, individuality and what not. -- YuanchosaanSalutations! 06:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

@Yuan: Sure, that's all good and stuff, but that's not the point here. That is the point in the talkboxes over all, but the 50px margin is there so it's all the time. Go onto Faethin's talk page. Scroll down and it just looks stupid how his one is different. IMO anyway. It's 10 pixels different. It shows.
50px width all times because it presents nicer. You know like how on forums has the left (sometimes right) with the avatars and extra info, and on the right (sometimes left) in the bigger space, th text. Using a set margin just presents so much nicer. --I Lion Heart I 10:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that would be a matter of opinion. To me, a little difference does not affect the layout too much. I think it looks fine, but others might not. In my opinion though, it's their template to do as they wish, within reasonable limits. -- YuanchosaanSalutations! 10:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
But the rules are 50px. It was never said 50px give or take. It was set as 50px for 50px width to be used. TA made it this way, TA wants it this way. --I Lion Heart I 10:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
T4HoL-Kuore

That's not why he was blocked now, was it?  ILHI 10:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

T4HoL-Kuore
Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 14:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Faethin wasn't blocked because of 10 pixels. He was blocked because he didn't seem to want to cooperate, as evident both on his talk page, as well as in his conversation with me in IRC. He knew what he was doing. He knew very well he was playing with fire.
BlueHighwind TA
Itadaki-Cloud2

For the last time, FAETHIN WAS NOT BLOCKED BECAUSE OF HIS TEMPLATE. He was blocked for not following what TA said. Reverting against authority. He knew what he was doing, he should have expected it. He was banned for having an edit war with an admin. Who's going to know what would be best for everyone? The admin, which is why he edited it. The template has nothing to do with his banning. It was the overall edit war with TA.

I'm not quite sure why you would vote for the opposite because someone was ever-so-temporarily banned for being an idiot. (Yes you were Faeth, you banned yourself). JZ: You vote the opposite of what you originally did because someone fought for the opposing side wrongly? That just doesn't make sense to me.  ILHI 15:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

BlueHighwind TA

Edit Conflict x2 Damn you JZ! :D

Uniformity over sloppiness any day. Currently it's standard to have 50px. So you get the odd different one which doesn't go.

Also, when replying, you should put your talk template one line below the above for anyone that doesn't know. So each talkbox is equal distance from each other (if images heights aren't taller than the box it self). It looks nicer.

There's nothing more to discuss. It looks much nicer. If you think it's okay as long as it's not that much bigger, then it can't harm your template much to remove those "not much extra" pixels. Of course, the users are probably thinking "Templates will look slightly better" over "It's far neater" on the page.  ILHI 15:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

BlueHighwind TA

I'm not sure whether that's a joke, BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO BLUES WITH TWO DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

Needless to say, @BH: The default won't let you use nothing other than 50px, so there's no regulations you have to abide by, unless you want to make your template slightly different. In which case don't be an idiot and use what you're meant to. It's nothing hard to do. Just don't change anything.  ILHI 18:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

He's more commonly called BH FYI.  ILHI 20:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Galbana-ffxiirw

Conflict'

To downsize it you can cut off her legs and re-upload. You can't just make the height smaller without making the width smaller too, therefore going below 50px.

(I missed the last sentence of your post, but it still works)

And BTW, when you reply to someone, don't go down two lines, go down one. So like the line right below. It means you won't get pointless gaps between talkboxes. (unless you have a tall image)  ILHI 20:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Itadaki-Cloud2

No. You see, everywhere there are restrictions. On forums, avatars are restricted to 50x50, 64x64, 100x100. Well here it's 50px width. If this were a proper forum, and not on a wiki, this discussion wouldn't be here. It'd be 50x50 whether you liked it or not. But you have the ability to change it here. That's the only difference. It's like hacking it, you are getting more than you are supposed to, and you are not supposed to for good reasons.  ILHI 20:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Itadaki-Cloud2

Again, @Scotty: He made it, he is admin. Admin's manage the wiki. Just like forum admin's manage forum. Who would go into the settings and make avatars 50px and resize those that are too tall. Just like here. Except people have found their way around. Wrongly. It has been set as 50px width for a reason. Well two reasons. It's not too big, to make all uniform.  ILHI 21:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 21:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
My history in computer science is what helped me create the template, but its my degree in art that a lot of what I see happening offends. It simply doesn't look good if the margins don't match up left and right, something we determined a long time ago (a long time before most of you were here). I'm not trying to exersize control over something I started (or else half of you wouldn't have the colors you do), but I can be disappointed in its appearance. I would expect other people could be disappointed with it and they didn't even make it and probably don't have my asthetic either.

Additionally: This policy was spelled out by a sysop, not an admin, though I do support uniformity, even if it means increasing the standard to 60px.

Galbana-ffxiirw
FFVI Terra Branford Menu iOS
Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 00:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
We can probably assume CSM would have agreed with the uniformity, considering he started the policy, too, but I'd put my money on a 60px uniform size.
Galbana-ffxiirw
Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 02:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Ratio. Adrammelech is roughtly 3x4. Garnet is more like 1x4 (four times as tall as it is wide).
Galbana-ffxiirw
CSM
Woton
Dissidia Cecil
RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
...
To those who said "To a reasonable level": Would you give your definition of reasonable levels? I'd say between 45 and 60 px sounds reasonable.
And you do know that these problems only occur because people make custom templates instead of using the base template. You could delete custom templates, but then I'd be very angry at you.

No it doesn't. That shows nothing to me at all. It shows he got into an edit war with TA for fuck-all reason.  ILHI 11:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well...

"Originally, TA entered the IRC channel and said something about BlueHighwind's picture being too big, a fairly neutral statement. Then I said mine was just as big as BlueH's."

So, this says Faeth knew exactly why he changed it. He reverted. And I'm not going to say there is anything wrong with the first revert. A test template. He could see that more reverting shall only get him more test templates. He continued, and rather than having a discussion with TA to "OMG why?", he continued reverting. It was inevitable he would get banned. He got the warnings. He banned himself.

"Everything happens for fuck-all reason"

You might want to think that statement through with some actual sense this time. Faeth got himself banned for no reason. That 10px which makes the system perfect, so he could be selfish with his own template. It only affected him, not me. So serves no relation whatsoever.

Uniformity, only changing those few templates to make the whole system perfect is surely priority over those few people's selfishness on the matter. The fact that people want it with 10 or less pixel moving space... This does not keep the margin, this fucks up the whole point of keeping to 50px, so no. That will never happen. Yes, 10px is a lot, 20% of the original size..; but uniformity damn you!  ILHI 11:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

TBH, 50px width stays. 100% of admin voters voted keep fixed. And making it fixed any higher might start making people's images stretch. But it has to be the same for the margin.  ILHI 12:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
...
You forgot one thing, ILHI: Admins don't get any bonus influence when voting. Even if they did, it's 2 votes for dropping the guidelines for every vote for keeping them. The people have spoken.

And yet, they should.

I have said this before, yet of course I see a need to say it once more. All the people voting for the top option are voting uniformity throughout talk; the margin, nothing for their advantage, for the wiki. Those voting the second can only gain from this option being used. What does sound more sensible? You have your uniqueness through your colours, signatures and avatars. Forums have a fixed margin. This place does not, and this cannot be done with wiki. We use fixed 50px width for the margin. Changing that leaves no margin, leaves people who will keep making their avatar bigger, unless there's a limit set. This of course will be about 10px more than the advised and therefore not keeping the margin.

So the sensibility goes. It would seem the first option implies selflessness, whereas the second, selfishness. That's what it comes to me as.  ILHI 12:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Woton
RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
...
Yeah, ILHI, you lost. Unless 8 people suddenly pop up and vote on your side, we have decided that we want a more flexible system. So stop trying to make us change.

Edit Conflict x3

But that is what I do. Conflicting opinions, how can one not try and convert the other? It's what I always do when I see someone displaying their opinion which does not match mine. The general idea is to make the other side see your views, and get your view across. Take out the other persons points and add loads of your own. I am extremely good at it because I think through what I am saying and why I am saying. I do not like polls and like to see people's views. Then I like to slaughter them. It's like me. Polls are nothing in comparison to a good heated debate.

And no I shall not shut up.  ILHI 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

No, actually.  ILHI 12:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Woton
RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
EDIT CONFLICT
Besides, polls show the people's opinion better than debates.
Woton

Edit Conflict x3 (technically 4)

No they do not. They only require your original thoughts. The idea of a debate is to change what people think. Of course, if they are on one side and the other side's argument is strong enough to make you switch, then something has been achieved. To make them now believe that they were indeed not considering all aspects of the argument.

Sure, a poll at the end of a debate is good. Not just a straight-out poll.

@JZ: Your lack of intelligence to say that is comparable that of voting in a poll.

@Yuan: The amount of people giving more than just their name when voting says otherwise. They have more to say, then wouldn't a discussion/debate have been much better?

@JZ: Shut up.

I've had to copy and paste this post so much, everytime I've gone to paste what I should have, I've had to go back and re-copy.  ILHI 12:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
EDIT CONFLICTx2
Well, sure, but so far, your arguments have failed, as I don't see any changed votes.

I have seen several. All JZ.  ILHI 13:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
...
That's just what I was about to say. Obviously I meant changed votes to your benefit.
EDIT: JZ: Calm. Down.
Woton

@Yuan; Re:RZ:-: Lack of intelligence for that comment. He had nothing behind it, he was just going against me for the sake of it.

And yes, it's harder to change others minds once a poll has been taken from the start. This is where people have voted, and fixed their opinion on that side. They are arguing for this side indefinitely. Of course, they can change their vote.

ANYWAY... I have nothing more to say. Oh, Margin for avatars > No margin for avatars...  ILHI 13:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

T4HoL-Kuore
Itadaki-Cloud2

Debates don't lead to hatred of one another BTW. Unless you let it.  ILHI 13:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

BlueHighwind TA
T4HoL-Kuore

@JZ: Come to my house. The word idiot is almost as common as the phrase "So's your face". Seriously.  ILHI 13:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

RedWizard-ff1-psp
Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / No time. I don't really care.
EDIT CONFLICT
Yeah, well, this is a democracy. Everyone has an equal vote.
I'm all argued out for now. The fact that a lot of Americans are arriving now is a pretty good sign that I should be asleep. Night all, see ya in about 8 hours.
T4HoL-Kuore
Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 17:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Wwwwooooooooowwww... Well, its nice to see Faethin is back, but I wasn't expecting to see that the wiki went completely insane last night.

The verdict.

After discussing this among the leadership and 'discussing' this with the community, the end result is that we have decided on allowing the size of the image to be 60px wide, and all images must be 60px wide (or be properly spaced in another, creative way). We will enforce a height/image restriction at the digression of the administrators(+).

A few things to keep in mind:

  • This only appears to be a democracy.
  • We have enforced compromises before.
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