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(ok, will create summon pages soon)
 
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Many years ago we merged the summon pages into one page. It's pretty clear at this point that they need to be split again at this point. We should really treat summon pages like we treat any other reoccurring character page; short paragraph overview that links to a more detailed page. We should probably have a more hard and fast rule about splitting summon pages. What exactly warrants a split? I would say if the summon give significant gameplay changes. In practice, this means they have a large table that we need to put on the page. Basically, this is means not 3-5 and not 7, but every other main series game. We could probably phrase this more officially at a different point, but it's a good thing to think about. [[User:ScatheMote|<span style="color:midnightblue">'''Scathe'''</span>]][[User talk:ScatheMote|<span style="color:#778899">'''Mote'''</span>]] 17:48, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
 
Many years ago we merged the summon pages into one page. It's pretty clear at this point that they need to be split again at this point. We should really treat summon pages like we treat any other reoccurring character page; short paragraph overview that links to a more detailed page. We should probably have a more hard and fast rule about splitting summon pages. What exactly warrants a split? I would say if the summon give significant gameplay changes. In practice, this means they have a large table that we need to put on the page. Basically, this is means not 3-5 and not 7, but every other main series game. We could probably phrase this more officially at a different point, but it's a good thing to think about. [[User:ScatheMote|<span style="color:midnightblue">'''Scathe'''</span>]][[User talk:ScatheMote|<span style="color:#778899">'''Mote'''</span>]] 17:48, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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:I would agree with that. 3, 5 and 7's summons appear as nothing more than one ability and have basically zero lore. While 4's summons only appear as an ability, they appear in the sequels as well and have more lore to them. Not sure what exact phrasing to use.--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 17:54, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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We already do this for XIV (see [[Shiva (Final Fantasy XIV)]]) though to be sure Primals are not "summons" in the traditional sense, egis excepted. Since most newer games treat summons somewhat similar to XIV (important to lore) I support. [[User:Catuse167|Cat]] ([[User talk:Catuse167|meow]] ∙ [[Special:Contributions/Catuse167|hunt]]) 19:15, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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Big yay to this. FFXII Espers have gambit and summon stuff and how to find them, but they are not really recurring summons the same way Shiva et al are. Like [[Ultima (Ivalice)]] seems okay to me. But there'd be enough for a Ultima FFXII page also. [[Anima (summon)]] is similar.
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Article creation policy for summons would be good. If the summon has its own stats separate from the summoner and/or it learns its own abilities by accumulating AP and/or it has a storyline of its own (like Alexander from FFIX even if it's not even a summon?) and/or there is a big quest to obtain it? I guess the thing is that summons already get a page to themselves by the current article creation policy even if it appears in only one game, but some of these pages like Shiva's page just become enormous. For FFXIII Brynhildr and Hecatoncheir have their own articles but the other summons are just shoved to the parents.[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] ([[User talk:Keltainentoukokuu|talk]]) 20:40, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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That criteria seems good, it's specific and very useful. I agree, Anima could easily get its own FFX page.
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As for the infobox, it should be fairly basic. Similar to the character infobox, where Gameplay details contains "Acquired", "Element", "Summon abilities" and "Taught abilities".
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My only question now is what the layout should be. Summon pages seem like Location pages - mostly focused on gameplay, some focus on lore. Therefore, I don't think they should use the character page layout exactly, as "Gameplay" as a header doesn't work. Maybe separate headers for the summon when summoned into battle to fight enemies and for when equipped to the party as Magicite/equipped GF etc, but I don't know what to call them?--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 21:08, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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:[[Doomtrain]] article looks like this. [[Hecatoncheir (summon)]] looks like this. Hmm, I guess looking at the latter shows how it should really be a parent page. I think Gameplay header would still work. Summon articles that don't have any gameplay info would exist...Alexander in FFIX and Type-0 at least. Or are they not summon articles anymore...[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] ([[User talk:Keltainentoukokuu|talk]]) 21:22, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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::Alexander in those games is a character, not a summon, like the FFXIV primals Cat brought up. The best I can think of is "Battle" for the summon attack and any of its moves when summoned in battle, and "Equipped"/"Accompaniment"(?) for things like taught abilities in FFVI and FFVIII. Maybe an "Obtaining" section before that for things like Doomtrain. I just don't feel comfortable using a Gameplay header when most of the page '''is''' gameplay, is all.--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 21:41, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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:::Character/Gameplay articles have different headers depending on the game, so summon pages maybe don't need all to have the same ones either. Compatibility section is relevant to FFVIII only, etc.[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] ([[User talk:Keltainentoukokuu|talk]]) 21:49, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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::::Hm. I guess it might make sense for "Battle" to stay, but then instead of "Equipped" or whatever, just have "Magicite"/"Guardian Force" section? I don't know how common summons which directly affect character abilities and stats are.--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 21:53, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
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:::::Intro, Story (if there is any story), Summon (subheaders for compatibility for FFVIII, Gestalt stuff for FFXIII, gambits for FFXII...?), Stats (if it has its own stats), Equipped (if it can be equipped; list of abilities user can get from it), How to obtain, Boss, Other appearances ? Other possible info: Creation and development.
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:::::What if the same summon appears in more than one game, like Ifrit in FFX is also Dark Ifrit boss, and also a boss in FFX-2? Or Odin from FFXIII is also Twilight Odin boss/Paradigm Pack monster, and Angel of Valhalla in Lightning Returns. I guess Odin from FFXIII could have a sort of character article... so far [[Maduin (Final Fantasy VI)]] has a character article whose Gameplay section includes summon info.
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:::::This is all much more confusing than I envisioned yesterday![[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] ([[User talk:Keltainentoukokuu|talk]]) 00:36, November 1, 2016 (UTC)
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::::::I think that layout mostly works. I'd still favor "Battle" over "Summon" simply because the whole page is about a summon, and put "Obtained" above it, directly below Story (also allows it to stay within a spoiler section if necessary). Can make an infobox and an example page tomorrow.
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::::::I would say that these pages should, like character and location pages, apply for the entire series. So a boss section would link to all of those, and the story section would also include FFX-2 information.--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 00:59, November 1, 2016 (UTC)
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Hey, all. I made an example [[User:Technobliterator/Workplace/Summonpage|here]] of a summon page using a layout. It doesn't make use of things like Stats or a gallery because those aren't available, however this is otherwise how I think the layout should go. I think that this is a big enough page to warrant its existence, particularly when you compare it to the page of many NPCs. And remember, the pages for FFX aeons, FFVIII GFs, FFXII espers etc, are much huger. Any thoughts, or should we go with this, adding to policy pages and then putting it into practice?--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 23:49, November 1, 2016 (UTC)
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:Looks good. Why I suggested "Summon" instead is because "Battle" to me sounds like it would contain boss info. I like the infobox.[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] ([[User talk:Keltainentoukokuu|talk]]) 01:08, November 3, 2016 (UTC)
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Added to project pages, please edit if I made any errors. I can start writing summon pages soon.--{{User:Technobliterator/Talk}} 17:40, November 3, 2016 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:40, November 3, 2016

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Forums: Index > Rin's Travel Agency > Archive > Summon pages per game

Technobliterator
I agree with most of it, but would prefer for the summons to go under the "Characters" section in navboxes.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 08:54, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
Sure, I think they should go under "Characters" as well.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 09:48, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

Many years ago we merged the summon pages into one page. It's pretty clear at this point that they need to be split again at this point. We should really treat summon pages like we treat any other reoccurring character page; short paragraph overview that links to a more detailed page. We should probably have a more hard and fast rule about splitting summon pages. What exactly warrants a split? I would say if the summon give significant gameplay changes. In practice, this means they have a large table that we need to put on the page. Basically, this is means not 3-5 and not 7, but every other main series game. We could probably phrase this more officially at a different point, but it's a good thing to think about. ScatheMote 17:48, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

I would agree with that. 3, 5 and 7's summons appear as nothing more than one ability and have basically zero lore. While 4's summons only appear as an ability, they appear in the sequels as well and have more lore to them. Not sure what exact phrasing to use.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 17:54, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

We already do this for XIV (see Shiva (Final Fantasy XIV)) though to be sure Primals are not "summons" in the traditional sense, egis excepted. Since most newer games treat summons somewhat similar to XIV (important to lore) I support. Cat (meowhunt) 19:15, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

Big yay to this. FFXII Espers have gambit and summon stuff and how to find them, but they are not really recurring summons the same way Shiva et al are. Like Ultima (Ivalice) seems okay to me. But there'd be enough for a Ultima FFXII page also. Anima (summon) is similar.

Article creation policy for summons would be good. If the summon has its own stats separate from the summoner and/or it learns its own abilities by accumulating AP and/or it has a storyline of its own (like Alexander from FFIX even if it's not even a summon?) and/or there is a big quest to obtain it? I guess the thing is that summons already get a page to themselves by the current article creation policy even if it appears in only one game, but some of these pages like Shiva's page just become enormous. For FFXIII Brynhildr and Hecatoncheir have their own articles but the other summons are just shoved to the parents.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 20:40, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

That criteria seems good, it's specific and very useful. I agree, Anima could easily get its own FFX page.

As for the infobox, it should be fairly basic. Similar to the character infobox, where Gameplay details contains "Acquired", "Element", "Summon abilities" and "Taught abilities".

My only question now is what the layout should be. Summon pages seem like Location pages - mostly focused on gameplay, some focus on lore. Therefore, I don't think they should use the character page layout exactly, as "Gameplay" as a header doesn't work. Maybe separate headers for the summon when summoned into battle to fight enemies and for when equipped to the party as Magicite/equipped GF etc, but I don't know what to call them?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 21:08, October 31, 2016 (UTC)

Doomtrain article looks like this. Hecatoncheir (summon) looks like this. Hmm, I guess looking at the latter shows how it should really be a parent page. I think Gameplay header would still work. Summon articles that don't have any gameplay info would exist...Alexander in FFIX and Type-0 at least. Or are they not summon articles anymore...Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:22, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
Alexander in those games is a character, not a summon, like the FFXIV primals Cat brought up. The best I can think of is "Battle" for the summon attack and any of its moves when summoned in battle, and "Equipped"/"Accompaniment"(?) for things like taught abilities in FFVI and FFVIII. Maybe an "Obtaining" section before that for things like Doomtrain. I just don't feel comfortable using a Gameplay header when most of the page is gameplay, is all.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 21:41, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
Character/Gameplay articles have different headers depending on the game, so summon pages maybe don't need all to have the same ones either. Compatibility section is relevant to FFVIII only, etc.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:49, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
Hm. I guess it might make sense for "Battle" to stay, but then instead of "Equipped" or whatever, just have "Magicite"/"Guardian Force" section? I don't know how common summons which directly affect character abilities and stats are.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 21:53, October 31, 2016 (UTC)
Intro, Story (if there is any story), Summon (subheaders for compatibility for FFVIII, Gestalt stuff for FFXIII, gambits for FFXII...?), Stats (if it has its own stats), Equipped (if it can be equipped; list of abilities user can get from it), How to obtain, Boss, Other appearances ? Other possible info: Creation and development.
What if the same summon appears in more than one game, like Ifrit in FFX is also Dark Ifrit boss, and also a boss in FFX-2? Or Odin from FFXIII is also Twilight Odin boss/Paradigm Pack monster, and Angel of Valhalla in Lightning Returns. I guess Odin from FFXIII could have a sort of character article... so far Maduin (Final Fantasy VI) has a character article whose Gameplay section includes summon info.
This is all much more confusing than I envisioned yesterday!Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 00:36, November 1, 2016 (UTC)
I think that layout mostly works. I'd still favor "Battle" over "Summon" simply because the whole page is about a summon, and put "Obtained" above it, directly below Story (also allows it to stay within a spoiler section if necessary). Can make an infobox and an example page tomorrow.
I would say that these pages should, like character and location pages, apply for the entire series. So a boss section would link to all of those, and the story section would also include FFX-2 information.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 00:59, November 1, 2016 (UTC)

Hey, all. I made an example here of a summon page using a layout. It doesn't make use of things like Stats or a gallery because those aren't available, however this is otherwise how I think the layout should go. I think that this is a big enough page to warrant its existence, particularly when you compare it to the page of many NPCs. And remember, the pages for FFX aeons, FFVIII GFs, FFXII espers etc, are much huger. Any thoughts, or should we go with this, adding to policy pages and then putting it into practice?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:49, November 1, 2016 (UTC)

Looks good. Why I suggested "Summon" instead is because "Battle" to me sounds like it would contain boss info. I like the infobox.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 01:08, November 3, 2016 (UTC)

Added to project pages, please edit if I made any errors. I can start writing summon pages soon.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 17:40, November 3, 2016 (UTC)

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