Forum:Staff Discussion 3D

Forums: Index > Rin's Travel Agency > Archive > Staff Discussion 3D

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		ScatheMote - 06:25, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		Alright, here we are again, several months after we decided to do this again because the internet sprites were vengeful. Anyway, let's get down to business. Bureaucrats: Do we another one? There have been concerns that the current bcrats aren't active, and that an active one might be better. There's the other side of the story which claims that we don't really need bcrats. Admins: Admin activity has been down a bit lately because of the vengeful spirit of vacation. Now that I'm back again to make this, more admins, do we want them? Mods: Espiritduo has been suggested as a candidate for mod. Consider his contributions when making your decision whether or not to promote him. Also, other people could be suggested, and if consent is given, I'd be happy to send his or her name for promotion. Now then, I leave it up to you. I of course have my opinions on all these topics, but I shall leave them for another time, as not to sway this discussion one side or another. Right now, I am only opening this discussion. Also, I'll lock this forum after a certain period of time after the discussion dies down, so don't dilly dally. Well then, I leave it up to you.

		Jimcloud TALK - 06:29, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		All right, well, here’s the first thing I want to get out in the open, before we go any further. Why is it that we want to recruit admins? Why is there so much hassle involved in it, every time? Yes, it’s a position that needs trust and needs the ability to use powers responsibly and needs commitment, but the way we go through things to get there is a bit much, even asking for those three things. As the wiki has thoroughly discussed, admins are not to be viewed as leaders in the context of the Wiki, which is the only reason I can find that we would need all of this hassle. So, we should stop treating it like it is applying for leadership when it’s not, and start treating it as a utility position. As others have often told me, we should only have as many admins as we need. I find this notion completely ridiculous. If this position is one of utility and not one of leadership, we should really have a few more admins than we need, in case some of them become less active or go on wikibreak or have something sudden come up that they need to attend to or whatever. Don’t tell me that doesn’t happen. It does happen. It has happened, just recently. With Scathe in Indonesia, Henry taking some time off back at home, and Fae, Yuan, and 8-bit all semi-active at best, I’m really amazed the Wiki didn’t do worse than it has recently. We were lucky to only receive a few vandals in the past couple of weeks; we could be looking pretty bad right now if there had been as many as there were when we last promoted admins. So, I’d like everyone to keep that in mind going into this. If you don’t think admins are leaders of the Wiki, or shouldn’t be, at the least, then don’t treat them like they are. Don’t make it ridiculously difficult for promotions to get through, don’t wait until problems come up to promote. That kind of thinking just makes us look silly when problems do come, admins are missing, and we sit there looking stupid because we didn’t think to promote a couple of admins to have a little more than we need when we had the chance. P.S. Esprit for moderator :D He's made an immeasurable contribution to our images, has helped with translations as well, and has kept level-headed and good-natured even through heated debates. The only concern is the amount of time he's been here, and I don't think that is nearly as big a concern for mods as it is for admins.

		Catuse says at 06:40, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		DARN YOU AND YOUR EDIT CONFLICTS JIMCLOUD Bureaucrats: I've thought it over and decided that it can't hurt to have a bureaucrat. Yes, it may ultimately be pointless. However, having a wiki without an active bureaucrat for no apparent reason is COMPLETELY pointless and accomplishes nothing. Admins: Having too many admins is ridiculous, because it puts us at risk of power-abuse. I've seen it happen on other sites. However, having only just as many as we need is also ridiculous, because adminship is a tool. Banning and deleting are tools. Being able to do them yourself instead of bugging admins about it is useful. Thus, promoting an active and experienced user or two (Drake comes to mind, esp. with all his image replacing, Jim isn't as experienced but certainly spends enough time here to have a use for it, and Jonny has the best of both worlds but edit wars, which means giving him admin rights is taking a risk. DSS also would be a good candidate, but hasn't been around that much recently. Mods: Esprit uploads a lot of images. Only mods can move images. You can do the math. Nobody else is quite is a good position for modship -- Kaimi was a few months ago, but has somewhat drifted away from the wiki since XIII-2 came out, and of course Shockstorm left the wiki just yesterday. May add more later, it's nearly midnight and I'm about to pass out over here. This also explains why some of what I wrote may not make any sense. :/

*Parades into the forum with large banners saying "SCM FOR MODERATOR"*

Okay, in all seriousness, I think it would be a good idea to always have at least one administrator more than we think we need. They are certainly utility roles, not leadership roles, and I don't see any downsides to having a few extras. I'll leave the nominations for other people though.

Mods, well, Esprit is certainly a good user, but as I said on the IRC earlier, I'm concerned that he may just be too new to the wiki to start handing out staff roles to him. That being said, I certainly wouldn't oppose such a decision. And I'm always free for the position. Just sayin'

I really have not seen a pressing need for another bcrat at the moment. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 06:43, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I was told this discussion was in 3D. I see no 3D here. >:(

		Xenomic TALK - 07:28, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		Floats through topic like a ghost* Oh what? This again? Well, another admin or two would never hurt~ Though who you want as admin, I'm staying out of since I'm clearly not someone to ask that question to. Considering ya know, I do jack all here even though I show up here everyday regardless if I do anything or not. I don't think I'd be suited for admin myself either in that situation~

I'm a newbie here, so sorry if I'm overstepping boundaries.
First off - Some Color Mage isn't staff? I honestly thought he was. Anyway, with experience as an administrator on a very large gaming Wiki, I can say that it's generally a tad risky not having an active bureaucrat. Mostly for the obvious reasons - without a bureaucrat, you have no way of promoting more admins/mods and eventually you have to go through Wikia to do so. It's all a bit tedious.
Alternatively, a bureaucrat should be the most respected and experienced administrator, so they're the perfect person to make final judgement on new rules, promotions, Wiki features etc. in the case of the rest of the staff being divided or uncertain. It's far more efficient and a bureaucrat is also a good person for admins and normal users alike to go for help or advice. Think of how many speed bumps in the past could have been resolved faster if you had a higher authority weigh in (first thing that comes to mind is the DNC situation). The most important thing is to have an unbiased and active user who knows their way around the Wiki, and additional skills such as coding and whatnot is always a big plus.
In terms of moderators, I'll have to jump on the bandwagon and say that although I don't edit regularly on this site, I've seen tremendous work from Espritduo, and not only is he friendly but also helpful without having to be asked. When I went about making Legend of the Crystals pages the other week, he went ahead and scanned in a plethora of great LotC pictures that were unavailable on the internet, which helped quite a bit. It's this sort of initiative and willingness to contribute positively that makes me put my confidence in him as a moderator, and I'm sure the rollback and image renaming rights would come in handy.
Anyway, that's all I had to say. Thanks for reading :) MATEUS 07:54, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Another point in favour of having another bureaucrat is that Wikia doesn't seem to know who to contact when they want to talk to us, which I assume is because they see the bureaucrat hasn't been doing much lately. Every time a Wikia staff member contacts someone different.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:47, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

While I will remain on the fence at the moment regarding whether or not we need more b'crats and admins, what I would say is that the last nominations didn't work particularly well. Can't the admins decide among each other who next admin(s) are going to be, should we need any? Sure, the rest of us can (and should) have a say, but in the end the final decision should go to the current admins. That's what I believe. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 12:29, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Jeppo... that is exactly the way that the last admin nominations (which you say didn't work particularly well) went. We had a say, our contributions were just providing material for the admins to determine who should be promoted; they got the final say. I don't have any objections with doing it that way again, but the way you said it made it sound like it's a new thing when it is exactly what happened last time. Jimcloud 13:09, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

That's not what I meant. Before the users made most of the input and that pretty much made up the admin's mind. Remember the big arguments? I think the admins should have more of a say, that's all. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 13:47, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

The final decision came down the the admins entirely, as far as I know. They took others' views into account, but they didn't have to – they could have ignored everything the other users said entirely if they had wanted to. When you have the final say in a decision, there's no magnitude you can measure of how "big" that say is. You either have power of veto or you don't. And they did last time, so they can't have "more" power of veto this time.

Also, this is the mindset of treating admins as leaders. Which, as Jimcloud emphatically pointed out, they are not -- Sorceror Nobody  13:58, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

		Sorceror Nobody – The supreme nonentity Talk · Flan's Elbow Colosseum · MSPA Wiki · 13:38, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "I can detect matter down to one atom in a vacuum the size of the moon, and apparently, this guy doesn't exist" -- Foaly
		*puts 3D glasses on* Oh cool. Though everything's blue and red now, and not my blue and red : / Esprit has done massive image work, massive, and that should really be almost (not quite, but almost) reason enough on its own to make him a mod, because clearly he has a use for the tools the position offers. Add in his temperament and such and I think we have a winner. As for admins, at the risk of being biased because, y'know, girlfriend, I think a lot of the objections that came against Jimcloud last time are lesser concerns. She is also one of our most active and consistently online users... and her borderline obsessive need to finish editing pages before she goes to bed means you certainly can't doubt that she cares about the quality of the wiki. She refuses to leave a page half finished >.> Drake, well, he's as good a candidate as ever, I think. He has recently said to me his attitude regarding JBed, and I admire the fact that despite the increasingly frequent tension between them, Drake hasn't snapped and continues to contribute. If Drake were made admin, I suspect the main possible concern is that he will probably temp ban JBed within a week of promotion. But, well, I don't know who here thinks that's a bad outcome. No comment. I'm not going to wade into the philosophy of how many staff we do or do not need in any detail. Suffice to say I broadly agree with Jimcloud and Catuse.

Well, I think I'd have to agree with your opinions on Jimmeh and Drake, they'd both make excellent admins. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 13:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I go to bed and miss all the fun! This is a surprise, to say the least. I appreciate the warm responses, but honestly, I feel I'm too new of an active contributor to the wiki to be handed a modship just yet. There are tons of things, basic things, that I just plain don't know how to do yet, and when it comes to the real inner-coding and protocols, I'm as green as a cactuar. No doubt, being able to move and rename images would be a godsend for me. Just yesterday I was eye-twitching at all the FFXI character image files with bad names, but didn't mention it to Jimcloud because I felt I was bugging her enough. For that reason alone I would consider accepting being a mod, but in all other aspects of the position I feel I'm not ready.

Also, there's the fact that in two weeks I go back to school, and will have very little time to do anything. I don't even know if I'll be able to do much image uploading after that point.

(and there's the fact that I'm lazy about actually putting the new images I upload on the mainspace somewhere. Keltainentoukokuu usually picks up my slack, and I always feel bad about it.) Espritduo (talk) 14:06, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 14:15, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		With regards to JBed, I will not lie - I think he needs a temp ban, both due to needing a vacation from the Wiki because of his conflicting feelings about being here, and to give the other users a break from the stress he creates. That said, if I were promoted I would not immediately ban him, nor would I push for a discussion of doing so with the other Admins. I would merely be willing to do so if his behavioural problems continued to escalate with other users, not just me, and I felt it was truly needed.

"With regards to JBed, I will not lie - I think he needs a temp ban, both due to needing a vacation from the Wiki because of his conflicting feelings about being here, and to give the other users a break from the stress he creates."

I would have to disagree. Not only would that be ineffective since I don't use my account much... and the only reason I use an account is to upload images... which is in no way harmful to the wiki.

Drake... really? I don't have conflicting feelings about being here. Find the last time I said I didn't want to be here. I may have criticised the wiki a few times (but not as much as I used to) but then that's because I know its flaws after studying it for five years.

And no, I'm not emotionally unstable. I usually stay calm in discussions. I'll admit that a few discussions I sound an aggravated (and I want to apologise for the 7+ dick moves I made during the ACP debacle.) --But I usually respond to the subject at hand. I don't flame the other person.

I'd like to remind you, Drake, that the only tension between us is because you do not follow the rules and you follow rules that are not rules. Which I can understand because the policies are not all written (which would happen if I were a staff member). I'm afraid that the deal with linking to the image being replaced isn't about you, and it isn't about me, it's about following the rules which are in place to make it easier for everyone.

Including me.

And had I not spoke up about it last time the wiki would be still using an image that was unnecessarily cropped and had its textured incorrectly applied. I think an unfaithful image is worse than a low-quality image, right?

But I won't keep on. This is irrelevant. Just know that if I were an admin the event would have unfolded quite differently. Instead I would have told you on your talk page once, found all the replaced images myself and deleted/acted accordingly. Then if things were to continue I would re-remind you what policy is. Another time? I'd bring up the idea of blocking. Next time? Day block. But it should never even get to that point since you wouldn't protest against an admin that much for no reason.^[1]

"and Jonny has the best of both worlds but edit wars, which means giving him admin rights is taking a risk."

I don't want to spend this thread fighting flak, and I understand by responding I am just furthering the discussion, but there's some defences that have to be made.

My protocol, as a user on this wiki, is to revert once (and state reason), and revert a second time (and state reason). Then I usually give up and turn to the talk page (if I hadn't already).

Sometimes I have reverted more than that (though not often), although this often happens at times where the person reverting me does not write a summary. Although I do usually eventually stop. Also while editing as an IP there's a reason to just not care. When IPs make edits they are not made that accountable for what they do, people move on. Hence the dick moves during the ACP. I sometimes overlook that it all comes back to me, the user, JBed.

• Jimcloud for SysOp.
• ScatheMote for bcrat.
• Me for SysOp, preferably bcrat.

Also if anyone has doubts about how I would act as a SysOp, there's always... y'know... a way to complain? Unless the other staff don't have the guts to demote other sysops (which I fear they probably do) we should never have a rogue admin who doesn't follow rules for that long. 79.69.220.228 15:46, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

1 - Admin's opinions do not count anymore than anyone else's, however they have the power to settle discussions and update policy. Admins make sure policy is enforced, and also that policy is kept up to date and the consensus is the policy. --Since I work so closely to the policy I'm pretty much ideal for a bcrat anyway: I want to see policy here and up to date which is why the ACP dick-move happened.

		Catuse says at 15:53, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		Wow, none of my previous post was grammatically correct. Well, you can still tell what point I was trying to make, so I won't bother rewording it. @Mateus: why'd you think Some Color Mage was a mod/admin? @Kelt: They used to go straight to Diablo and Tactic, which shows that they want to contact a bureaucrat. Buuuuuuuuuut, they can't, so they contact some random admin. I agree with this. @Master and Drake: It's physically impossible to ban JBed because of his rotating IP thingy. Never mind that it's pointless. Also, conflicting feelings? Didn't he get those sorted. Edit conflict @Jonny: Why wouldn't people "protest" an admin?

		Jimcloud TALK - 15:58, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		@Cat: Well, he did make a little footnote and explained his reasoning below. If that doesn't help you, then... *shrug*

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 16:00, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		The reason there is tension between us, JBed, is because I disagree with you. I have different ways of doing things and different interpretations of policy, and in you can not or will not accept the possibility that your opinions on such things may be flawed. "you do not follow the rules and you follow rules that are not rules" could just as easily be said about you. That is all I will say to avoid devolving this discussion into a flame war. Your conflicted feelings, in the past you have indicated repeatedly you hate being on the wiki, and expressed negative opinions about the userbase including comments to the effect that the wiki is an addiction you cannot shake. If this is not your current attitude, very well, but it is in your history, which does not inspire confidence. "Not only would that be ineffective since I don't use my account much" - which in turn would get your IPs banned and the account ban lengthened for ban skipping.

Oh for Christ's sake...

I'm starting to grow weary of this squabbling. Can't you two find some sort of continental agreement, or at the very least, move your squabbling to somewhere else so that the rest of us can discuss the way forward?

And people wonder why I say we should leave it to the current admins. This is why. Jeppo (Talk | contribs)

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 16:12, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		There is no squabbling on my part. I said all I have to say on my personal feelings about JBed in the first paragraph, the rest of my post and anything posted hereafter will only be to indicate my feelings on why or why not he should not be made Admin.

		BlueHighwind Q? 16:14, August 12, 2012 (UTC) TALK - So if you care to find me, look to the Western Sky!ツ:
		Screw all this other noise. Jimcloud for admin.

@Cat: TA became bcrat and I saw no complaints except my own to Diablo. Diablo promoted him unjustifiably.

I was briefly blocked for criticising/protesting his rise (albeit long after the time. I had previously made a complaint on Diablo's page which didn't come to anything-- it was obvious no one was going to take his powers once he was given them even if many others voiced their opinion)

Then we have our lovely admins, none of whom have it in them to remove CSM's unfinished (not even started?) walkthrough.

People may criticise me for jumping at people's comments when I disagree (such as people's reasoning in the VfFA) but it's because I have the guts to stand up and share my opinion for something I think is wrong.

Also I could make a list of why I have bcrat-qualities but it would be too long to be worth the effort. 79.69.220.228 16:20, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

No one is questioning your skills and experience. The problem is that while you do have the skills and experience to be a bcrat, you don't have the attitude to be one.

"Not only would that be ineffective since I don't use my account much..." You are saying you would ban-evade in case you would ever get blocked.

"Also while editing as an IP there's a reason to just not care. When IPs make edits they are not made that accountable for what they do, people move on." You are saying "I should not be held accountable for what I do when editing as an IP".

Basically, we don't want you as an admin or bcrat because of your attitude, not because we think you don't have the experience and skill to be one. --Sove 16:34, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

"You are saying you would ban-evade in case you would ever get blocked."

How did you come to that decision? I always edit as an IP. If someone decides to block my account for some reason so be it, I only use it for uploading images and occasionally voting if I want to drive the wiki towards making a more informed decision in the VfFA. Edit:I just realised how ridiculous what I said sounds. But yes, I would continue editing as an IP if someone decided to block me. They need a reason to first, and "to allow me to take a well-needed break" is neither true or an appropriate reason. If such a thing ever happens I will apologise for helping the wiki when a SysOp abuses their powers.

"The problem is that while you do have the skills and experience to be a bcrat, you don't have the attitude to be one."

My attitude? I am someone who just gets to the point and states disagreements when I disagree, sticks to the policy (even when I disagree with it-- which I will likely also bring up somewhere), and argues in the case of policy when someone acts against it.

My attitude is blunt and to the point. Someone says something and I disagree, I state why. Like I am doing now. Do you consider this attitude bad? If you do then I apologise. It's simplistic.

"Basically, we don't want you as an admin or bcrat because of your attitude, not because we think you don't have the experience and skill to be one."

I accept that people have other reasons for not wanting me to be a staff. But when you compare plusses/negatives?

My attitude is not going to change. If anything I just become less aggressive as time goes by. Whether I be user or admin, it's all the same.

But if I am an admin I will have a greater interest in helping the wiki. I will spend time monitoring the maintenance categories. I will start discussions and get the policy in the ground. I will bother to code some of the things I have wanted to that will make everyone's life easier. I will have more reason to spend time here etc. etc.. 79.69.220.228 16:45, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

		Deadlyslashsword - +It takes disaster to learn a lesson, but you're going to make it through the darkest nights+ TALK - 17:06, August 12, 2012 (UTC) - Some people betray and cause treason...we're gonna make everything alright.
		I jumped onto this train kind of late - B-crats - Though we don't need the ability to promote all the time, I feel we do need one actually active B-crat. Admins - Sitting on the fence on this one. Mods - Rollback rights should always been treated as a recognition of work and dedication to the wiki, not given out to those because they could use it. Having said that, the process for promoting both mods and admins seems to have changed drastically even within the last year and a half. Promotions use to take a long time and were based on dedication to the wiki, now they're much more frequent and given much quicker to users compared to how it used to be. Is this due to how our wiki has grown and changed over the years? If so, it's something to think about. I have a list of users I'd support for each category, but I'll save it for when/if an official nomination thread goes up.

"Rollback rights should always been treated as a recognition of work and dedication to the wiki, not given out to those because they could use it."

Both. Dedication to the wiki (so we trust them, as I'm sure we do Espritduo) and we know it will help them improve the wiki more efficiently. See also: Forum:Staff Discussion Mark II. We want our users to help the wiki. If they can be more efficient then it is only a benefit to the wiki. That's basically what that thread seems to say... or at least that's the opinion I had when I pushed for the creation of the thread, that's what I said in that thread, and Drake agreed, and then Catuse was mod. So something went right.

However, Espritduo's close work with images doesn't usually involve moving them though (? I don't think) so I'm not sure even that applies. But I'm not necessarily arguing against him becoming a Mod. I don't rate rollback rights very highly since the rights earned through mod-status are the rights we would happily lend to any trusted user of the wiki IMO. Moving images? Suppressing redirects? In a vandal's hand could be destructive. In a trusted user's? That's fine, we can just revert it if people disagree. 79.69.220.228 17:17, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/KujaFFIX/ee38fd7f.png

		Kuja FFIX - '...I won't let it happen. I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!' TALK - 18:01, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		Regarding bureaucrats, I would agree with pretty much all of what Mateus said above. A new bureaucrat is not essential, and I don't feel that they should be held as a figurehead for the Wiki, but they should be able to provide a decisive voice - and actually be present. I was going to post something detailed praising the merits of each of my personal choices, but this topic has stretched out long enough already. As such, I recommend Scathe for bureaucrat (he is amicable, calm, professional and respected); Drake, DSS and Jimcloud for admin (all are skilled, active and proficient); and Espritduo for moderator (if he is willing to accept, he is pretty much the perfect temperament for a new staff member and his recent work with the images has been invaluable). I'm under no illusion that my opinion is particularly relevant here, but I do feel that these members would all make truly excellent candidates for promotion and that all of them would be able to further benefit the Wiki with access to new tools. I do also agree with Jimcloud in that we should stop treating staff as users a tier above everyone else; they are users with extra tools. I also nominate myself for the position of moderator as someone needs to use the Kuja portrait on the staff page. Of course this is a valid reason.

		BlueLionheart - "Be careful, dear friend, lest you fall into the endless ocean of stars..." - 水風死 TALK - 19:56, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I am going to leave my two cents here as well. I agree with what many others are saying in that we probably should have at least one bureaucrat on the Wiki, especially if they are going to be particularly active. As far as admins are concerned, I think we could probably use at least one more, because it seems to me that many of the ones we have (Fae, Eight-bit, Yuan, etc) can not be active as much as they were (they have their own lives, too!). That's just how it seems to me, though, since I am just now starting to be more active again. I do not really know what to think on the whole moderator part, and should probably consider it more. I suppose having a few around in case something happens when the admins are not here would be very helpful, but I don't know any specific numbers or anything. Anyway, that is just what I think on this whole matter!

		Sorceror Nobody – The supreme nonentity Talk · Flan's Elbow Colosseum · MSPA Wiki · 20:55, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "I can detect matter down to one atom in a vacuum the size of the moon, and apparently, this guy doesn't exist" -- Foaly
		Just going to throw in some stuff I said on IRC earlier, for the benefit of anyone who wasn't there: [17:20] <Sorceror_Nobody> The number of admins we have follows exactly the same logic as the number of guardians Yuna has [17:20] <Sorceror_Nobody> We can have as many as can be trusted with the position [17:20] <Sorceror_Nobody> There's no reason to have a bare minimum [17:21] <Sorceror_Nobody> If however you are misinterpreting me as saying that we need LOADS FOR THE HELLZ OF IT [17:21] <Sorceror_Nobody> Then no [17:21] <Sorceror_Nobody> Because I'm not saying that [17:24] <Sorceror_Nobody> Admins should not merely be promoted on an "as emergencies arise" basis [17:24] <Sorceror_Nobody> Because THEN WE GET EMERGENCIES [17:25] <Sorceror_Nobody> If we have competent, trustworthy users who can plug gaps and act as buffers, we have no good reason not to promote them [17:29] <Sorceror_Nobody> I didn't just say "competent, trustworthy users". I said "competent, trustworthy users who can plug gaps and act as buffers". People who will use the admin tools. Which is a smaller set of users by far. Am I trustworthy and competent? Apparently a lot of people think so. Would I make a useful admin? Not really. Also, regarding the potential drama involved in these discussions: [17:34] <Sorceror_Nobody> The matter would be considerably less dramatic if people stopped treating adminship like some big ascent to the pantheon of Olympus For the record, I would certainly support Scathe for bcrat, and any combination of Drake, DSS and Jimcloud for admins. Hell, Drake has been rejected in the past based on certain behavioural tendencies that I sure as hell could point to other sysop staff and say, "Yeah, and so do they." As for Esprit... well, the fact that he's been noticed this early in his wiki career speaks volumes to the work he's done in that short time, but of course we can't force a mod position on him if he doesn't want it. P.S. I may not be admin material, that's fine. I probably wouldn't be much use as a mod either, but if anyone did want to nominate me... well, Ark's taking Kuja... Vaan needs more cred, I'll take his portrait :3

I don't doubt that Drake could be admin-material, but my main concern about him in the past is that he said he does not desire to be admin.

Of course, he may have now changed his mind, and sure, that's fine. But I'm of the personal opinion that SysOps should want to be in that position. They are more likely to stay active and make use of their powers because they wanted it.

Alternatively users may have just been looking for glory and once they are promoted their goal has been met and they can retire. You could also turn that idea on its head and say the longer users are kept from being SysOp the harder they'll work to prove themself. But then that's only going to work for users in the second category. 79.69.220.228 21:08, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 21:15, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I was looking for glory, then fell from glory :( (Note: I am only joking people! Don't take that seriously! I hope...).

		Catuse says at 21:17, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		@Jim: And that, folks, is why you don't rush a forum post just to avoid another edit conflict. :/ @Highwind and Jeppo: I agree. This is why stuff never gets done in the real world, let alone the Internet. @Jonny: I didn't raise much of a fuss over the whole Diablo situation because it's impossible to revoke a bureaucrat's rights anyways, so that would just be a massive waste of time. @DSS: But this isn't just the useless rollback button that's being given out, it's a set of useful tools that regular editors have use for. @Jonny again: A vandal suppressing redirects and moving files? *shudder* @Lionheart: You post in the fora? What's next? Writing pages the length of Limit (Final Fantasy VII) from scratch? :P More seriously, though, 8bit, Yuan, and Fae aren't really that active these days... but 3 seems to be the status quo when it comes to admins. When the 3 of them faded away, a corrosponding 3 was promoted: Bluesey, Scathe, and Henry. Now Bluesey has drifted away, and Scathe and Henry aren't exactly known for consistently being on the wiki. Thus, one new user to replace Bluesey would benefit the wiki, maybe a second to counterbalance Scathe/Henry's wikibreaks. At least, that's what should be done in the event that people decide admins ARE some sort of superhumans or something... because they're not, but if they are, then we should keep an equal number at all times. Edit conflict x2. >:| i has teh wrst luk @Jonny for the third time: Drake just said in the IRC that was based on something that he said 2/3 years ago, and no longer isn't true. So yeah. But if users are JUST looking to be an admin, making them an admin would be counterproductive. But that's nobody here, so it's not really relevant. And another one @Xeno: Gold, glory, and God. That's what makes people do stuff. Sometimes it costs them all three just to have one.

		Keltainentoukokuu - OH YEAH AWESOME TALK - Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:19, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I support Scathe and/or Henry for bureaucrat if they want the position. Jimcloud would be a great admin, and I think Catuse would make a great one too. I support Espiritduo for mod but only if he's comfortable with it. I totally get why someone might not be, and I don't want him to take it just because he might think we'd feel bad if he "rejected" our offer. I don't support Drake or JBed for admin. Drake basically said he would temp-ban JBed who says he would evade the ban, and we just don't need this kinda drama. I respect JBed perhaps the most out of anyone here, but honey I don't get why you would even want to be a SysOp or bureaucrat. Why would anyone really...guess that's just one of those things.

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 21:22, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I'm going to state what I've said in the last two or three staff discussions going back into 2011 - IF I AM TOLD I AM TO BE PROMOTED, I WILL ACCEPT IT WITH 100% WILLINGNESS. That aside, people still can't seem to understand this and the current administration still questions my attitude problems, so I frankly don't expect Adminship and will not be surprised when I don't get it. @Kelt - No, I've said I would personally like to, and only for the good of him and the wiki, not due to thinking he actually deserves to be banned - he doesn't. I recognize however that is not professional behavior and at the current state of things is not needed, and I am mature and professional enough to put aside my personal preferences in favor of the good of the wiki and its userbase. Take for example how many times I abide by discussion decisions even if I disagree with the result.

		Xenomic TALK - 21:23, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		@Cactuse: But what if it's because they have nothing better to do in their spare time but do something? And what if there's no gold or Godhood to be gotten? I want some gold dammit! >_<

		Catuse says at 21:52, August 12, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		@Kelt: Me, an admin? Now that's a scary concept :P @Xeno: Well, that's what makes people do most stuff. Boredom... huh. I dunno.

		Xenomic TALK - 22:07, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
		I should totally be admin then~ I am the most bored person in this side of the net, and I would totally do stuff! Like...umm...what I do right now! ...What is it that I do right now? @_@;; Also yes, imagine what catastrophic events would happen if Kelt was made admin! Oh, the horrors....the HORRORS! ;_:

"I don't get why you would even want to be a SysOp or bureaucrat."

I could write a really large response to this. --79.69.220.228 22:23, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

@Cat's post at 15:53: Because I'm a nice person that everyone likes! :D

@Esprit: That's fine. Just know that if you change your mind, everyone here would support promoting you.

I forgot that DSS isn't an admin. >_< I'd support him for promotion too. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 22:50, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

		Yuan 翠珊 — 01:12, August 13, 2012 (UTC) "He wants to write a love song / An anthem of forgiving / A manual for living with defeat"
		To be honest, I think you guys are better qualified to assess the situation and our need for admins than I am. I've been inactive for a long time, and I'm mostly clinging to my admin broom to occasionally help with maintenance and to give input if needed on policy touching older subjects. I obviously have my bias when it comes to promoting candidates like Jonny, Drakey, DSS and Jimcloud - but I don't know whether they apply to the current situation. Personally, I'm always a bit wary about promoting admins - though we do promote for utility, we do have to look at dedication, contribution, behaviour, and yes, if they're "deserving" of it, so the number of suitable candidates are an issue. I just ask that you consider this carefully. I don't see a problem with our current number of bcrats. If we're not treating it as a leadership role, and the only right they have that admins don't have is the ability to promote users, why do we need another one? I will support Scathe if you still feel we need one. I also support Espritduo for mod. Love your image work.

Actually, I was thinking this recently. Since this is half-related, I want to push for a reboot of our Acknowledgment section. I still think we need to acknowledge users from WikiHistory like AJDurai (who pushed for an updated naming policy and a revamp of enemy articles from the SNES era) and Espritduo, who might not want to be the mod yet but is well-respected enough to deserve a mention, right? JBed (talk) 01:22, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

		Catuse says at 02:08, August 13, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		@Yuan: Jim, DSS, Drake, and Jonny all fall under both "utility" and "deservingness", which I guess also covers "contribution". "Dedication"... well, three of them are here nonstop ... but DSS, well, not so much :/ Behavior is the only issue, mostly because of this silly Drake vs. Jonny thing that happens around here all the time. @Jonny: I was wondering what that was used for. Since mod isn't really acknowledgement, but is a tool, it doesn't make any sense to "acknowledge" users by allowing them to move files and stuff that anybody who knows what their doing should be able to do. If Esprit doesn't want to be mod, he could be the first user to be acknowledged. Users who know about wikihistory should discuss that.

		Deadlyslashsword - +It takes disaster to learn a lesson, but you're going to make it through the darkest nights+ TALK - 02:12, August 13, 2012 (UTC) - Some people betray and cause treason...we're gonna make everything alright.
		I'm here everyday. I may not edit everyday, but I am here, mostly stalking RC.

Thinking about it, I guess I can be a mod, since it really isn't a "leadership" thing, just a "user+" thing. I really could use some more image-moving/renaming powers, honestly. So yeah...if you really think I'm ok to be a mod, I'll take the little cactus and try not to mess up too badly. :) Espritduo (talk) 05:47, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

TacticAngel TALK 05:43, August 13, 2012 (UTC) I do have to point out my general amusement at the boisterous nature of the debate, particularly the part where Drake thinks we all need a break from jbed, and then jbed addresses the issue by saying we should anoint him king of the Wiki. I would like to add, and I believe Diablo would agree with this, that another part of the equation is temperament. We do have some rather feisty editors, and its important to be able to sit back and realize that we all love this series, or at least parts of it, but it is not serious business.

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy181/ScatheMote/AnotherSmug.png

		ScatheMote - 07:26, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
		Well, the discussion has been very busy so far. I've talked with TA, and I've emailed Henry to get his opinion. In about six days, I'm going to lock the thread, so keep that in mind, though I think everyone who wants to comment has commented. I'll post a few of my opinions and comments here right now. My activity will reach its height once I return from Indonesia on August 22nd. I will also be in a timezone where I can figure out when things are happening. I think one more admin is okay right now. I'll stay quiet about my choices at the moment, though. Espritduo has had a large amount of contribution in a small period of time, but I worry that he may still have not completely learned the ropes. I believe that his modship is still something that should happen, even if it is not at this particular time. Acknowledgement is something that I am not opposed to. However, I would leave to only people who edited in the past are currently inactive, but they never received modship. Maybe put it somewhere that's not the staff page? In terms of bureaucrats, the promotion would be symbolic, since it really is only one new power. We need to be careful to balance leadership of the wiki and the staffs' tools. That being said, there are of course benefits to a more active bcrat. I would take the position if offered, if only because of the community has given consent. PS: 3D sold separately.

		Lightning - Divine Etro, go peacefully to your rest. I will stand guard over your legacy. 11:04, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
		OMG! I'M MAKING MY OWN SECTION.... SOMEONE IS GOING TO KILL ME! BUT WAIT! LET ME AT LEAST START... Considering that most of you have not heard of me and haven't the faintest clue who I am, I've decided to post here simply as I am a user who can arguably present most general users of the wiki. Almost everyone else (aside from maybe Mateus & Sove) is one of the following: An Admin (TA, Scathe, Yuan etc...) A Mod (Drake, Kelt, Xeno, Jimcloud etc...) A user who has been or is being considered to be a mod/admin or has the skills that could qualify (Espirit, SN, Cat etc...) In other words, not many "average users" of the wiki are being considered. Actually, considered maybe the wrong word. More like, represented. I understand that "comments" in their nature are, at the end of the day, just opinions. Personal opinions. No-one can claim or has claimed to represent the wiki as a whole. People have talked about the possible tyranny of admins only deciding amongst themselves and whether or not admins should listen to the "public". Jeppo has commented that it may be easier to just leave it to the admins, with Jimcloud & SN providing wonderful democratic opposition. But seriously guys, look. You are leaving it to admins (well, and mods). Regular user opinions on this thread are few and far between. Why is that? Here is the answer: THEY DON'T CARE. Regular users on the wiki are interested in very few things and these are at the core center of the wiki. Simple things like editing articles, improving articles and their grammar/spelling, creating new articles, sharing their ideas, having an uber-cool userspace, helping other users, reading up and learning and most importantly expressing their love for the FF franchise and enjoying their time on the wiki. This entire voting poll and thread is just not in that list. Hence, regular users don't care about it and so don't express their opinions on these sorts of threads. Eventually, all this thread is going to become is a long list of opinions (important ones, but still, opinions) that most people are not bothered by - as well as the home of some possibly frivolous argument between Drake and JBed. Now, at the same time, don't knock yourself. The fact no-one cares is ironically a good thing frankly, because the only time users would want new b'crats, admins and mods is if the wiki isn't functioning. The fact not many people are bothered shows we are doing well. The wiki is running smoothly and vandals are being handled. Therefore, you have to question the reasoning for adding more users to the staff list. Personally, I think we could do with 1 more everything, simply because a number of staff members (especially admins) are inactive. I mean, yes, the wiki works, but the question is for how long will it continue to work and operate smoothly? Adding more certainly won't hurt. Remember, as per the job description, be it admins or mods, all users on the wiki are basically the same (it is so nice to think that a small little guy like me is the exact same as someone like TA!). Being an admin or mod is not being given power. You are being given a responsibility - entrusted with jobs. There is a massive difference between becoming the supreme leader and being a respected, trusted user with additional rights. As for actual nominations, the admin and crat opening maybe a tiny bit more debatable, but for Mod, definitely Espirit. His amazing image contribution could prove be an invaluable addition to the wiki. Others also shouldn't be written off e.g. SN, Cat and Kaimi (arguably a little biased but @Cat - I didn't notice the quiet) as they are all prominent and committed users, something that should be awarded, but having a diverse range of specialists such as an image specialist, music specialist etc... could only be better for the wiki. As for admin, well, I will shorten my to response to 1 username and 1 text-abbreviation: JIMCLOUD FTW!!! Bureaucrat, well, having a second won't hurt. Personally, Scathe and Henry (and Yuan if she is making a permanent comeback) are eligible (even if I want to destroy Henry for nominating the Eidolon (FFXIII) article, on the time it is actually going to win, when I kept on banging on and on about it - even said I would nominate it!! WAAAAH!!!) Considering Kelt's determination to not be an admin (and that torture is illegal in the UK), that rules out my personal favourite so yeah, once again, JIMCLOUD FTW!!!!! (OMG, DID I JUST AGREE WITH BLUE?!). *Drinks coffee*. So as a reminder.... Most people don't give a damn (i.e. Wiki=Awesome). This decision is kind of becoming an elitist discussion anyway. Admin/Mod-ship is not power, more responsibility (and no, it is with great power that comes great responsibility, not with great responsibility that comes great power). It won't hurt to have more staff (better safe than sorry). Espirit is more than deserving, as we need a range of specialists. People shouldn't be written off. JIMCLOUD FTW!!!! Curse you Kelt (in the nicest and most endearing way possible). Yeah, a few people are cool enough to be crats. Henry, be afraid. Be very afraid... Now you can kill me. COOLAWITS - TALK | XVI | DQFF | YFC

		Jimcloud TALK - 11:41, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
		Well, that was... actually, quite good. I probably would have watched my word choice a little bit more carefully, but I believe that your first ~6 paragraphs sum up most of the opinions expressed here as it is now. Just one thing I'd like to point out to you, um, Cat is actually a mod right now ^^;

I just removed two of those arbitrary break headers, because, seriously, three breaks in six posts is not helpful. At all. I left TA's in, because of the two rather important posts immediately following that header. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 11:45, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

		Coolawits - ...loves you, Kupo! TALK - 12:16, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
		Why thank you Jimcloud. Honouring weak, powerless, unknown, helpless poor souls' opinions such as mine is really nice of you. Hang on, you are uber-nice too. Yep, deffo: JIMCLOUD FTW!!!. And yes, I should have probably been a bit more thoughtful about my words, but I suppose the general message came through (or rather I'm hoping it did). And DOH! I was bound to mistake in there somewhere, although I was hoping that it might be like a spelling mistake, not a MAJOR OVERSIGHT! Curse it! Life is no longer worth living! *Climbs out to roof* Well anyway. Hang on, how am I typing? Meh, whatever. Anyway, I will defend my statement by saying the category is people being considered to be mods AND ADMINS. So haha! Hahahahaha! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hahahahaha...*cough cough*. P.S. And thanks to SCM, people can't kill me anymore, as the evidence that I created my own section has been wiped off the face of the Earth (or in true FFXIII ultimate fanboy style: of the face of Pulse)! So put those gunblades away... now...