Editing Forum:Some suggestions for major changes II

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{{Bluer|20:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|This is a continuation of the [[Forum:Some suggestions for major changes]]}}

===Suggestions===
*'''Like Topic Forums be merged''' - [[User:Bluerfn|Bluerfn]] - ''Mastered!''
**Support: [[User:Azul81677|Azul81677]], [[User:BlueHighwind|BlueHighwind]], [[User:Hecko X|Hecko X]], [[User:Goldberry2000|Gold]]
**Oppose: [[User:Crazyswordsman|CSM]], [[User:DrakemasterDrake|Drake1]] [[User:Hexedmagica|Hexed]] [[User:Renmiri|Renmiri]] [[User:Scottyboy4|Scottyboy]] [[User:Henryacores|Henryacores]]
*'''Midgar Press News Format''' - [[User:Bluerfn|Bluerfn]] - ''Mastered!''
**Support: [[User:Azul81677|Azul81677]], [[User:BlueHighwind|BlueHighwind]], [[User:Crazyswordsman|Crazyswordsman]], [[User:Goldberry2000|Gold]],  [[User:DrakemasterDrake|Drake 1]], [[User:Scottyboy4|Scottyboy]]
*'''Improved mediums for people to submit fanstuff''' - [[User:Crazyswordsman|Crazyswordsman]]
**Support: [[User:Goldberry2000|Gold]], [[User:Diablocon|Diablocon]],  [[User:DrakemasterDrake|Drake1]], [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]], [[User:Hexedmagica|Hexed]]
*'''More defined rules about WikiDumping and how we aren't Wikipedia''' - [[User:Diablocon|Diablocon]]
**Support:  [[User:DrakemasterDrake|Drake 1]], [[User:Bluerfn|Blue。]], [[User:Hexedmagica|Hexed]], [[User:Crazyswordsman|Crazyswordsman]] (very, very, very strong support), [[User:BlueHighwind|BlueHighwind]], [[User:Goldberry2000|Gold]]³

===Comments===

{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=There are still six users apposing this, including the almighty god of this wiki, Crazyswordsman.  And now you have game help, fan stuff, and off topic.  How about ON topic.  Four forums would be better than three when it comes to that.  That's six against six.  Not mastered.
}}
{{BlueHighwind
|text=Too late, two Fora are already gone.  Sorry Drake 1, but I have a funny feeling that your Waystone is next.  Since I know you'll oppose that move (and I really want to avoid an edit war), I'll let an Admin take care of that ugly job.}}
{{Heckotalk|17:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|Wow! *swoon* Drake^2, what a great idea, an ON-topic forum. Just out of curiousity, before I say too much, what kind of stuff would go in the On-topic forum that isn't already:
#In an article
#On a talk page
#Part of a user page (includes subpages)
?}}


{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=You know more CSM doesn't want any forums merged, he just said it very clearly on BH's talk page.
}}
{{Heckotalk|18:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|Then he should have entered the discussion and stated why he didn't want them to be merged so that we could have a mature discussion about it, instead of doing absolutely nothing and then whining when other people take the initiative. You snooze, you lose, as the saying goes. While not having very pursuasive arguments, I at least credit you for trying, which, win or lose, is a big thumbs up in my book.

'''(EDIT)''' I additionally want to give you credit for very talentfully avoiding my question. What would go in the On-topic forum that isn't already in one of the pages mentioned above?}}
{{CSM|18:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|This is my problem.  It's rude to the people like Drake and Ren, who went to the trouble of setting up the forums (oh, and Fora isn't a word.  It's forums.  Nobody calls them fora).  And you merged the FIRST one into the SECOND one.  Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Also, merging forums bumps dead topics to the top of the forums and the active ones get thrown away.  Also, there was NO CONSENSUS to merge the forums and Hecko basically abused his power as an admin to override consensus.  And you all expect me to play along with Hecko's little game, well I'm STAYING OUT OF THIS ONE.  Hecko, you are responsible for ALL complaints about this.}}


{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=I would've fought against this through the whole discussion but it happened when I was asleep.  I would start putting the forums back but it would take a long time becasue I don't have rollback and I would probaly be banned.
}}
{{Bluer|19:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|I also propose some changes for the main page and since this thread is getting longer by the minute, I figured making a discussion about them on <nowiki>[[Talk:Main Page]]</nowiki> instead.}}
{{Heckotalk|19:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|2=I'll take them bit by bit:
*''<font color=black>It's rude to the people like Drake and Ren, who went to the trouble of setting up the forums</font>''
:Why is it rude? All the posts remain (with few exceptions), they remain "moderators" on the new forum, which has the same topic as the one they went through the trouble of creating (read: "''copy/pasted and renaimed, which takes like 5 seconds''). What do they lose? Exactly, '''''nothing'''''. In fact they get an extra person to help them "moderate", and there's less chance of people screwing up what post goes in what forum.
*''<font color=black>oh, and Fora isn't a word. It's forums.</font>''
:As previously stated, forum is latin, and singularis, while fora is pluralis. "Forums" on the other hand, is a pathetic attempt to take a latin word and applying English grammar on how to change a word to plural form. People just used it for so long that it is considered "not wrong".
*''<font color=black>Nobody calls them fora</font>''
:I just did, several times, can you not read?
*''<font color=black>And you merged the FIRST one into the SECOND one. Shouldn't it be the other way around?</font>''
:Not necessarily, but I can see where you're coming from. If it makes you feel any better, I can change the name to "Fan Creations" and then it won't matter.
*''<font color=black>Also, merging forums bumps dead topics to the top of the forums and the active ones get thrown away.</font>''
:This is almost entirely true (the active ones don't get "thrown away", they just go further down on the list). But give people enough credit to have enough brain power to know what fora they are active in. Scrolling down may be hard work, but I think people will manage somehow. And if all else fails, hello "Watch" function, hello "Recent Changes" page (albeit, this ''also'' requires you to scroll down *shock*).
*''<font color=black>Also, there was NO CONSENSUS to merge the forums and Hecko basically abused his power as an admin to override consensus.</font>''
:Boohoo, cry me a river. I gave people enough chances to enter the discussion before I did anything and the only one who cared (enough) and participated (on team "no") was Drake^2. The rest of you said nothing, and in a discussion, if you don't speak up, your oppinion doesn't matter, so it was a 4-5 against 1 case scenario, and the 1 "lost". I abused nothing, you just missused your opportunity to get heard, so stop whining and blaming me for your own short-commings, I'm sick of it.
*''<font color=black>And you all expect me to play along with Hecko's little game, well I'm STAYING OUT OF THIS ONE.</font>''
:You are getting too paranoid. But fine, if you wanna stay out of it, then you have no right to whine either.
*''<font color=black>Hecko, you are responsible for ALL complaints about this.</font>''
:Sure thing, but I take all credit for it as well then. None of that "If people whine, you did it, if they like it, it was all my idea"-bullshit.

'''@Blue:''' Too late for that, I offered doing it on my talk page, people didn't want to.}}
{{Bluer|19:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|Um... um.... *squints at Hecko's talk page* where?}}
{{CSM|19:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)| (Edit Conflict) Does it matter what our reasons are?  The fact of the matter is the proposal was voted down 6-5.  I think that a major change requires a supermajority and a real consensus; this one didn't even have a simple majority.  And you didn't solicit questions from us or ask us why we think that way (people like me, Drake, Diablo, and others), you just went ahead and did it, thought you counted more than the rest of us, and so on.}}
{{BlueHighwind
|text=Oh don't worry Crazyswords, we all know that you count more than the rest of us.  I'd say that Hecko is either second or third on the importance ladder.  Anyway, who gives a damn about majorities and consensuses?  These are nothing more than inefficient stumbling blocks to real change.  Just because its popular doesn't make it right - see ''Napolean Dynamite''.  This is why democracy doesn't work in the real world, or in this wiki.}}
{{TacticAngelText|19:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|For the record, I don't have a real problem with the change. I don't really care all that much one way or the other though. I do understand some of CSM's points here. On the bright side, nothing here has been done that can't be undone. On that subject, and specifically on the subject of autocracy or oligarchy, I have included descriptions on the forum page beneath each forum so people can tell what they're about (mostly).

And BHW's opinion no longer counts for voting purposes, as he is not a part of the oligarchy, nor does he support the inclusion of laymen's opinions in everyday decision making.

Thanks BHW. I will feign injury to my ego.}}

{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=I'd like to point out that most of the oppistion wasn't on when you had the final part of the discussion, and they were probaly sleeping.
}}
{{Heckotalk|20:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)|2='''@Blue:''' 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC): "''So, looking forward to some good arguments from the nay-sayers as to why they didn't want the merge 'n' organize-suggestion to go through. Feel free to post the comments on my talk page instead of here, in case this goes in to a lengthy discussion.''"

It's just that no one did it.

'''@CSM:''' "''<font color=black>And you didn't solicit questions from us or ask us why we think that way (people like me, Drake, Diablo, and others) </font>''"<br>'''a)''' 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC): "''I just wanna ask, why were some people against that the fora would be merged and organized?''"<br>'''b)''' 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC): "''Because if it's the former, then fair enough, you probably have good reasons and I would very much like to hear them''"<br>'''c)''' 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC): "''So, looking forward to some good arguments from the nay-sayers as to why they didn't want the merge 'n' organize-suggestion to go through''"<br>'''d)''' 20:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC): "''P.S. What happened to all the other nay-sayers? Aren't they gonna explain themselves?''"

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't what now? So once again, please '''stop''' blaming me for '''your own''' short-commings. It's not my fault if you can't read.
But, sure, I can ask all the people, not part of this discussion on their respective talk pages, if you want.

'''@Drake:''' In that case, I would like to point out that the discussion started a couple of days ago and that everyone who voted no have been active on this site (except Renmiri) during that timeframe and all had a perfect oppertunity to speak their minds, but they didn't, at any time, from the discussion began and up to this point.}}
{{BlueHighwind
|text=TA I was promoted this morning to Moderator, so I am part of the oligarchy now.  See I got the dancing Cactuar and everything:

[[File:Cactuar.gif]]

PS. Can we move this conversation somewhere, my computer takes a million years to upload this page.  And even longer to edit it.}}
{{AuronKText|text=You've forgotten to write up my opposings to everythings, tzienkuie.}}
{{Heckotalk|15:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)|2=So, I've been asking around, and here are my results:
People, who did not take part in the forum merging discussion, could choose between the following options on what they thought of the forum merges:<br>
'''a)''' It's nice, thank you for organizing it.<br>   
'''b)''' It sucks! Change it back!<br>   
'''c)''' I never even noticed the changes, so I don't really care either way :P<br> 
People who voted '''a)''': AK<br>
People who voted '''b)''': <br>
People who voted '''c)''': Diablo, Frusion, Hexed, Scottyboy<br>
People who have yet to vote: PK Master, Clawfang, Renmiri

So the current standing on this issue is:<br>
In favor: Me, Blue, AK, Highwind, Gold, and Azul<br>
Against: CSM, and Drake^2, (possibly Renmiri, depending on her vote)

And in case you're wonder where Henryacores is on this list, well, he deleted the questionare from his talk page, so screw his oppinion, he's had way too many chance to be heard and he purposely blew them all.

I'll update this, should more people choose to answer by midnight CET, if not, too bad, so sad, but won't care then.}}
{{TacticAngelText|21:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)|BHW: You'll have to be an Admin before I care. <nowiki>=P</nowiki>

...though for the life of me I can't think of what an admin does that a moderator doesn't do, except perhaps lord his greater position over moderators when it is comedically convenient to do so (RE: above).}}

{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=Don't admins have the power to ban people, though?
}}
{{Heckotalk|21:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)|Banning, page protection and page deletion/recovery are the main differences. And Tactics, was that last part a misguided poke at me?}}
{{Bluer|21:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)|Forum merge successful? We're now left with four forums, which I believe is:
*Agency - general random FFWiki related topics
*Hotel - for FF game help
*Sanctuary - for fan creations
*Waystone - for non FF related topics

Seeing that the waystone is not merged with anything so far, and Drake1 is utilizing his forum, maybe we should overlook it for now.

Moving on to other suggestions: '''WIKIDUMPING!'''}}
{{Heckotalk|21:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)|[[Help:Contents#I_saw_a_good_article_on_Wikipedia.2C_can_I_dump_it_here.3F|Here's what it looks like now]]. What should be changed and why? Go go Gadget great discussion.}}
{{TacticAngelText|22:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)|Hecko: No. That comment was neither directed towards you nor was it misguided. The whole post was a farse. I was poking fun at myself.}}
{{Bluer|17:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|I didn't mean to bump an old thread, but I have a suggestion:

Remove the affliates and ffwiki around the world and placing the links within to the Links under Interaction instead. I thought about it and BH was right too. It's pushing the search bar down, and it's not easy for most of us anyway.}}
{{CSM|17:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|We need to keep the affiliates up there.  It makes us look better as an FF fan site.}}
{{Bluer|17:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|I know (somewhat) about the history of these affiliation and their value, but scrolling down to the search bar when you want to make a quick search does seem a hassle.}}
{{TacticAngelText|20:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|For the record, I agree with what Blue suggests here. I don't really know what kind of weight the placement carries. I imagine it is precious little.}}
{{Heckotalk|21:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|I would agree too, if it wasn't because the affiliates were already linked to in the links section (at least two of them). But other than that, yeah, they should be removed. If the "affiliates" status is so important, make a section in the Links page simply called "affiliates", and rename Links; "Affiliates and Links".}}

{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=Are we really that lazy that we can't swipe our finger down on the mouse just one extra time to get to the search bar?
}}
{{Bluer|21:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|Practicality is more the term.}}


{{DrakemasterDraketalk
|text=Well, all I know is that I '''am''' too lazy to scroll down once more.  I side with Blue!  *gasp*
}}
{{Bluer|21:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)|:p

I'll start editing the Links.}}