Note that this is coming weeks if not months down the road, and we shouldn't worry too much about it for now. You can see it in action at w:c:tardis. I personally think it's ugly, the text is too big, and the content width is too thin, plus the nav rail and the bottom navigation thing look like they're from those awful freehosting sites, but this is an early beta, and hopefully these problems will be fixed by time of release. If not, we can do our best to CSS over it. Wikia seems to have liberalized their anti-customization policies as of late — though, because this update moves ads into the content itself, they might change their minds there.We'll have to overhaul a lot of CSS and JS if this goes through though. Rail stuff, especially sideicons, will have to be either moved in with Recent Wiki Activity or elsewhere. We'll have to either float infoboxes left or move them under Wiki Activity.
Problems with Content[edit source]
- Background needs to be redone, far too big on smaller monitors and leaves too much blank space on the larger ones
- Gray boxes(?) in thumbnailed pictures
- Overlapped Happy Chocobo logos - though this may be a cache issue caused by JBed's update
- Galleries no longer open immediately
- Too much blank space to the right of navboxes
- Padding etc. formatting enemy infoboxes is ruined. clicky
- Infobox tabber is ruined. (see above)
- Weirdness with the new navigation, for example there is a "Forum:Index" link called More Forums, when (a) the plural of forum isn't actually forums and (b) far more importantly, we already linked to all the fora
- Favicon doesn't show for some people
- Slow to load in Firefox - in some cases appears to not load at all (Wikia will most likely fix)
We have a number of things in place that should make designing for new skins easier, sort of. The Recent Wiki Activity box seems like a good place to put Article Icons, though this brings up something awkward about the design:
You see, the thing about Oasis is after the rail stops, it just looks like there is a massive gap where content looks like it should be able to flow into. This design doesn't do that, but it basically puts rails contents as part of the page. So infoboxes will go below it. That will be our biggest issue.
Fuck that right? I don't think Wikia want right-floated infoboxes used on wikis. If mobile skin is anything to go by anyway. Maybe we should just go for a full-width design; infoboxes bring a lot of trouble anyway. Though honestly I'm not much a fan of full-width infoboxes because they require considerably more complex design. I imagine what this was would give you an idea of how that looks.
Alternatively, icons could be moved to the left and our custom rail items could just be pop-outs. Like how the TOC is. Like how the TOC is? Aww, fuck that man. JBed (talk) 05:36, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
I think this will be incredibly difficult to design for. I do not see a single percievable way we can make our content look good given how much is obscured by ads and shoved into side rails. Also, doesn't this just make our width even worse? I would like to not change our infoboxes if we possibly can. If they need to be part of some rail on the side, then let's do that, but an ad appearing above them worries me.Now for my personal opinion. This new skin can fuck right off. Terrible design, narrows width even more when we are already compromising because of their old skin. Who thought this was a good idea, "hurr durr lets shove ads right above infoboxes and obscure content even more bcuz lol screw information sites we social network now". If we can vote to not have it then let's not have it. But if it's forced, then this makes me seriously think we should leave Wikia, but every wiki who has ever done that has ended up just splitting the community and being unsuccessful.
The article space in the new skin reminds me of how American magazine/newspaper websites lay out their articles. Like The Atlantic or something but less classy because they use "newspaper" typefaces. Are all websites gonna look like his then. 56% of Wikia users supposedly visit the site via mobile devices so I can see why they want to standardise everything. I'm trying not to be too negative because that's not going to help anything but the infobox thing is a problem. I suppose all wikis are going to complain about that one so hopefully Wikia can offer some idea what to do.
I've actually known this was coming for awhile, but I couldn't tell anybody until the release. Wikia actually has several other things coming down the pipe which I still cannot talk about. Most are minor, one I think is actually nifty if implemented correctly. Another change is one that I think is absolutely awful, but hopefully we can avoid that one (but it's a minor thing on the grand scheme of things). These new announcements should come in January.
So far the other Wikia Stars are not terribly happy about it, reading the forums. They're not huge fans of the ads. I don't think Wikia is going to budge on that part. As for centered page widths, I'm actually supportive.Anyway, I'll try to keep you updated as I can.
All they need to do is stop the ads obscuring the infobox and we're fine. The other workaround is just get adblock, which most people do anyway.
Don't worry about Sideicons. On the Jak and Daxter wiki, we have Template:Games, which is right underneath the number of articles created, as you can see here. It's basically the same as Sideicons. We can do them like that.I fully support centering page widths, the ads thing is just stupid.
Techno, the ads aren't the problem RE: infoboxes. The problem with infoboxes is that they're shoved under Recent Wiki Activity, which may or may not have ads under it. Infoboxes should be at the top of the page, front and center, otherwise there really isn't a point. This is something that's actually better about mobile than browser, because I doubt mobile will have Recent Wiki Activity and other metadata; it's read-only.And we're not leaving Wikia. As much as we'd all like to, the only wiki that has been successful with a fork is KHWiki, and that was under extreme circumstances: Oasis completely ruined their content in a near-unfixable manner, they were undergoing something along the lines of a between mainspace and userspace editors (i.e. trolls vs 12-year-olds) and so a fork actually made working on articles easier, and they didn't have nearly as good SEO as we do, so they could actually bring down the Keyhole's search results. None of this is the case on FFWiki.
KHWiki was successful? Really?And yes, the ads are the problem. I don't care if you shove Recent Wiki Activity above it, it's terrible but manageable. I do care if you shove a freaking World of Warcraft advertisement vid above it.
Advertisers want people to look at the ad first and then the article after that. It's hard for Wikia to please both clients, wikis and the advertisers. When Oasis was brought out they made a big deal how the ads are not in the content was one of the new great features for wikis, and now they're back. :p That's why they put the ad there where the infobox used to be...that's where people look first just out of habit. Hope Wikia can show the feedback gathered from the test wikis to the advertisers and come up with something else...
It's using Wikia.js (so I imagine Wikia.css) too. For JS not much of a problem, if skin=="venus" or "oasis". For CSS, a bit more of a problem. There is a class in the body that determines the skin, but the inclusion of that plays with the importance of the CSS rule.
I imagine they'll fully abandon oasis, so that probably is for if we decide to work on venus before it's implemented. I'll actually probably make "MediaWiki:Venus.css" and import it via JS for now until it becomes the actual skin. JBed (talk) 11:54, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
Most of the skin looks tolerable. But now infoboxes squash text. Recent Wiki Activity is an utterly useless thing, use the RecentChanges instead of shoving it on every page. It was useless on Oasis too.
Do not adjust infoboxes. If Wikia break our content and force this down our throats, tell them to fuck right off and fix it themselves. The burden should be on them. If they can't find a solution, not our fault or problem.Stop accepting this garbage and stand up to them.
I just checked FFVII article in this Venus skin and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Special:WikiActivity looks horribly out of place IMO since it clashes with quite a number of certain articles, mainly those using infoboxes but that was said here numerous time. The four circular buttons that slide along the page is a really neat feature IMO, especially the ability to jump between sections at will. I'm happy about the article width since it's not so thin (it may be due to my use of AdBlock Plus, but honestly I have no idea what is the format for ads for that skin so I might be wrong). I'm startled by the "Films you gotta see" thing that appears kind of outta nowhere. There are too large gaps between lines in the same paragraph, not to speak about how large the gaps are between paragraphs themselves which is really worrisome. And the indent when there are ** or ## or more is way to large. If those things could be fixed it would certainly be better to be used than that Oasis abomination. They could burn Oasis for all I care.
Is there an article you think is of an exceptional quality? Vote for it here!
Hmm interesting to see it. Headers as links looks terrible because they are so large. Also References sections look pretty gross with the gaps. I guess it'll be easier now to read on a tablet.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 15:25, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
- 16:47, January 14, 2015 (UTC) Made the logo bigger, other logo changes to make liek other skins to facilitate changing logo for special skins/events. If it appears weird, the CSS isn't updating properly.
- 23:47, January 15, 2015 (UTC) Gave the MWV module a darkened background to visually separated it from content.
Now, to people talking about spaces between paragraphs: This issue isn't poor design on their part. The font-size is meant to be 16px, but we actually set it to 14px for consistency across skins because that's what Oasis uses.
So do we keep 14px and I reduce that gap, or do we go with what they want us to use?
Well this could have gone a lot worse. Remember this? Well, now this — which is much more reasonable, since Venus has yet to be released and we're allowed to muck around with it. Please report any bugs/other weirdness so we can get on fixing that.@JBed: 16px is easier on the eyes, but it's annoying to do so much scrolling.
Personally I think 16px looks a little too big. Cat, I'm not sure what's supposed to be wrong with tabber, that example page you linked appears to work perfectly. Infobox formatting looks pretty dire though, we may need to work on a redesign.
- It was probably a cache error, or JS being stupid, but the second tab would disappear when you clicked "Show all".
- Favicon works for me, so I'm guessing that was a server-side hiccup. C A T U S E 01:37, January 15, 2015 (UTC)
I'm still of the opinion that we should be stubborn and stand our ground and tell Wikia to provide solutions for us. Honestly, I am strongly philosophically opposed to Wikia and in fact to for-profit wikifarms in general and I'm surprised so many people are so okay with this...inexcusably awful design. However, I am fighting for a lost cause, so instead I'm going to be as helpful as I can.
I've given a few looks at 3 pages (Tifa Lockhart, Kaiser Dragon, LoFFXIIWeapons) testing it on 3 devices (my desktop PC, my tablet computer, and my phone) in 3 different skins (monobook, oasis, venus). So that's 9 different tests. Note that the tablet was using the desktop version of the site by default, and the phone was using the desktop version of monobook and oasis. I think the phone version of venus is the same as the desktop but I'm not 100%. I tested them all logged out (so I saw ads). I find that:
It's clear they're doing this for monetisation (which I loathe...), as more users shift to viewing on mobile, they want to earn money from mobile. However, it does enhance the mobile experience quite significantly. I also discovered that they already shove ads above infoboxes in oasis. I hate this too, but now I've shifted my biggest problem to the utterly, utterly useless and obnoxious Recent Wiki Activity that serves no purpose to anyone. Any logged in user should know how the RecentChanges works.
And now, I'm going to list some things I noticed:
RE: the problems listed here:
In most cases, yep, and definitely in the cases of Navboxes. However, some infoboxes, ie the ones on game articles, cramp content because they don't contain an "infobox" class. So we probably need to update all our infoboxes to contain it. That might be more stuff to do on our Infobox metatemplating module. This means we need to update character infoboxes to the new metatemplate.
If we want to go with the spacing solution used on Navboxes for our Infoboxes, that adds tds which contain nothing but 2px spaces, then we want to metatemplate them too to add it more easily. There are probably other fixes, but it seems like Wikia place some restrictions on infobox CSS classes (as you see that a lot of the things are strikethroughed when viewing in dev console). However, I think we need to vote on that, I don't have a problem with them and I don't consider the lack of spacing objective flaw. My bigger problem is it doesn't vertically centre th's, which is...dumb. Do Wikia document what restrictions they place on Infobox classes? Are these permanent or is it the skin being WIP?We need to decide what we want to do for Enemy templates on that btw, I've heard conflicting propositions from the other two designers (I basically gave up my original idea because of our different FFWiki's Infoboxes are) and I think we need to work out whose we are going for, as it may influence what becomes of our infoboxes in the new skin. That said, it also relies on Wikia...
- "but it seems like Wikia place some restrictions on infobox CSS classes"
I've heard conflicting propositions from the other two designers
I don't have any ideas, unless mindless rambling on IRC counts. JBed suggested blocks a la Caves of Narshe, this will probably work in every medium and is more in line with non-wikis do things. C A T U S E 02:04, January 16, 2015 (UTC)