Forum:NPC Infobox

Forums: Index > Rin's Travel Agency > Archive > NPC Infobox

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 04:38, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		I think it wouldn't hurt to explore the possibility of a character box specifically for NPCs. We can keep it to a few general criteria so it can be used across multiple game universe, with coloring set to change depending on a field ("ie game = FF4, uses the FF4 classes"). Could list things like (some of these would be optional) - age, hair color, eye color, affilitation, role, location (for locations important to the character, could be redefined as hometown or hometown could be an alternate field for travelling characters and such), related characters, and voice actor. What do we think? EDIT Proto-type in action and its coding. EDIT x2 - As a list of criteria, SN suggested this, and I agree - you must be able to fill the Romaji, Kana, Role, and Affiliation fields, and at least one of the other fields - VAs, Hometown, or Related Characters, and the latter must include a major character, hero or antagonist. Also, feel free to suggest additional fields. The purpose of a character box is to quickly present a list of important facts about the character, so is there anything else we could use?

		Catuse says at 04:41, April 22, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		Don't see why not, except... that that's probably a lot of NPC pages we'd have to edit.

I think it's a pretty cool idea, and it might be something I could do to help the wiki, but it'd take quite a long time due to the overwhelming amount of NPCs. (sorry for not having a talkbox D:) EpicCarbunkl 04:44, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Drake, didn't you just revert an infobox for Kefka? Or was that DSS? Sorry, I get you two mixed up all the time T_T

Anyhow, I think it's a great idea, but it might be difficult with details. Tidus357 05:01, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

		Deadlyslashsword - +It takes disaster to learn a lesson, but you're going to make it through the darkest nights+ TALK - 05:02, April 22, 2012 (UTC) - Some people betray and cause treason...we're gonna make everything alright.
		I don't think it would hurt to explore it either, or to see a few mock-ups of the proposed box. I'm just wondering if there's enough relevant info shared between NPCs across the series to warrant a box like that. EDITCONFLICT: That was Drake. How do you mix us up? >.>

		TidusTehSacrificer357 - "Don't you run, needles!" TALK - 05:07, April 22, 2012 (UTC) - Vote at the Fayth's Dream Arena!
		Lawlz, your names start with D, you're in every discussion, you're popular in this wiki, and you're both mods. Hmm?

		Keltainentoukokuu - OH YEAH AWESOME TALK - Keltainentoukokuu 05:15, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		Hi-five Tidus, for like the first 8 months I was here I thought Drake and DSS are the same person. But I just pay no attention to anything.

		TidusTehSacrificer357 - "Don't you run, needles!" TALK - 05:29, April 22, 2012 (UTC) - Vote at the Fayth's Dream Arena!
		hi five* Really? So it's not just me O.o Maybe they are the same person, and- *shot, for revealing secret information* ahem* Getting off topic. Drake, that's pretty good work on the Gestahl box, I think it'll work well. Good luck getting it into every single NPC on the wiki. :D

Some Color Mage / Talk Contribs / / 11:58, April 22, 2012 (UTC) Well, the prototype you've made seems good, and really, I don't see why not. I say go for it.

File:Kimahri Ronso artwork.jpg

		Xepscern - It's Morphin Time!! TALK - 12:03, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		I have to ask, how relevant must a character be to get a box? NPCs range in importance

		TidusTehSacrificer357 - "Don't you run, needles!" TALK - 12:12, April 22, 2012 (UTC) - Vote at the Fayth's Dream Arena!
		Hmmm, good question Xep, although I don't think we have to be picky here. Maybe we should just add it to every npc that has an actual name, and take it from there. If there isn't enough info, then don't bother.

I think everyone here is missing one vital thing. What's the point?

Characters get infoboxes because we have additional information about them, usually from the Ultimania. These are the kinds of information that wouldn't fit well in prose. And even then, eye-colour is mentioned in appearance anyway.

But then, the real purpose of an infobox is for camparison-sake. And if almost all the fields are optional, except romaji and japanese (which are sensible displayed elsewhere) then I cannot see a real need.

NPCs are not important. Everything about an NPC should be mentioned within their article.

In summary, I see there are just two purposes for an infobox. Comparable fields (age, blood type, weapon, etc.) and displaying information that otherwise would not fit well in prose. This fails on both counts.

As a final point, infoboxes are ridiculously intrusive. And they would be especially intrusive on short articles. Infoboxes are not a good thing and something we should find a way to put in every article. They were only designed to display certain information in the most logical way. JBed 13:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Possible problems: If an NPC appears in many games then what colour infobox they get? The most recent appearance would make sense, but with some games versus spin-offs the main game is just much more known, such as if a character appears in both FFXII (main series game, a game widely played) and Revenant Wings (a game "no one " has played), do they still get Revenant Wings infobox? Even if their RW appearance was a tiny cameo compared to FFXII? Moreover, characters like Namingway and Gilgamesh can't get NPC infoboxes because their different appearances are all on one page, even if Namingway is a relevant NPC with his own storyline in the DS version, for example.

For some characters, it may be difficult to fill in the fields making the infobox rather pointless. What would we put as Exdeath's eyecolour and hair colour? His "location", is it Castle Exdeath or Forest of Moore or what?

There may not be artwork available of the NPC to use in an infobox. This could be by-passed by always using in-game render/sprite. This would make it consistent, but a massive info-box with a teeny tiny FF4 sprite won't look too grand.Keltainentoukokuu 15:48, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

This template will bring up the boogeyman of the FFWiki, which is consistency. We all know there is no consistency between games, but there's an even more inconsistent amount of information regarding individual NPCs between the games and inside the games themselves, which is due to the relative importance of NPCs inside the settings.

For example: Gestahl and Madeline; Cid Previa and Queen Karnak; Topapa and Salina; Halim Ondore IV and Gramis Gana Solidor; Belgemine and Brother; Astos and Koppe; Princess Hilda and Nelly.

Those examples may compare "important" characters with less interventive characters, and that is the point. We have to give all these NPCs the same treatment, and while this concept to do so is very good, we know that's going to bring up a huge difference in pages. Also, regarding images, we have artwork for some NPCs, while we only have either sprites or screenshots of the models of others: if we want to apply a standard infobox, we have to pick a standard image type. This deep standardization of NPC coverage has to be well measured and wanted. - Henryacores^ 16:40, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 20:47, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		"If an NPC appears in many games then what colour infobox they get?" - the series-wide colors, or alternatively the colors of the game of their first appearance. Same goes for Namingway and Gilgamesh "such as if a character appears in both FFXII and Revenant Wings" - then they get the FF12 colors because it's their base appearance. The FF4 cast don't all use TAY boxes, do they? "There may not be artwork available of the NPC to use in an infobox." - aye, but we don't always need to use artwork. "What would we put as Exdeath's eyecolour and hair colour?" - we would omit those, as with any character without apparently eyes or hair. "His "location", is it Castle Exdeath or Forest of Moore or what?" - it could be both, I see the "location" field as a list of important locations the character can be interacted with at. But if this is undesirable it can go, I see the problem in it becoming too long. As for the notes about important characters or not, that is what the list of required fields would hopefully avoid. We could also/alternatively state a page must be so long for the infobox to be used. I'm concerned it won't produce the desired effect though. And for the purpose of a character box, I see it as a way to list a series of important points about a character at the top of the article, which in tandem with the intro should give a quick overview of the character at the top of the article.

None of that solves the real issue of this plan, which means to standardize information that cannot be standardized by an uncomparable variation of content. It simply can't be done.

We could also/alternatively state a page must be so long for the infobox to be used.

Lol. Simply NO. We are not creating an infobox to use at a selection of a type of pages. It destroys the entire concept of standardizing NPC pages. Either all NPCs get an infobox, or none at all do.

And for the purpose of a character box, I see it as a way to list a series of important points about a character at the top of the article, which in tandem with the intro should give a quick overview of the character at the top of the article.

Why don't we just grab the important points about a character and place them at the intro? Not only that is a completely legit solution to the purpose you're trying to reach, but also dissolutes the reason to use infoboxes whose fields would literally vary from article to article.

I'm still curious what an infobox at Koppe; Elina; Topapa; Kokkol would have. I think most people here are only focused on characters of importance to their respective games and forget those that are purely drones like our dear Invisible Woman of Cornelia. - Henryacores^ 21:16, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 21:25, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		"We are not creating an infobox to use at a selection of a type of pages. It destroys the entire concept of standardizing NPC pages. Either all NPCs get an infobox, or none at all do." - that is your opinion and it is valued as all are, but it is yet an opinion. I see no problem in requiring a certain level of importance for an NPC to get a infobox. I agree that standardization is needed to impliment this, but there is no reason that standardization must be as you want it.

there is no reason that standardization must be as you want it

You speak as if I'm defining the concept of standardization, rather than describing it. We don't make an enemy infobox for a game and apply it at an enemy page if. We don't have a game infobox that we put in a game article if the game has enough information. Wash rinse and repeat for playable characters, musical albums, manga.

It is ridiculous to create an infobox that uses variable fields as the rule and not the exception, so as to use them at a select few articles based on their content: infoboxes are designed to include standard infomation determined a priori and indepently of the article itself. See the enemy articles: the default value for a field at the infobox is "None" or "Not Applicable", not omission. - Henryacores^ 21:40, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

One of my main problems is that the information that goes in the infobox will either fit into one of two places. The intro or the appearance section (and maybe trivia).

Eye colour and hair colour are things we have in infoboxes just because they are the kind of simple fields that work in an infobox and bulk it up (and also because the manuals and Ultimania guides use the same fields). I would't say that is the kind of information that needs to be mentioned in the summary of a character.

Any other information such as locations, alternate names, role and group are things that should go in the intro anyway.

Age would go in one of those two places. Honestly, not many non-playable NPCs have ages that I can think of.

Related characters might sound rather nifty, but playable characters can clearly live without them. And related characters is a very hard thing to do in the FF series. So Elena goes with all the other Turks... but would you put Palmer with the rest of Shinra? Sephiroth could go with Lucrecia and Hojo... but EPIC SPOILERS.

My other main problem with the infoboxes is the lack of standardisation. NPCs may fulfill the role easily. Take Tifa's Father, he's related to Tifa, lives in Nibelheim and is in the game for all of ten seconds. Then we have any number of other characters like Dio, the guys from the Choco ranch, Kalm traveler, and Corneo who I don't think fulfill the requirement based on your initial criteria. You also claim that a character has to be in a group, which I don't understand why. That's Dyne clearly without an infobox.

But the fact that a character can have an eye colour and hair colour and a voice actor and get an infobox, and another can have a hometown and be related to a player character and also have one... JBed 21:44, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 21:50, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
		EDIT CONFLICT - @Henry: If that is the concern, then we can simply make some of the optional fields non-optional and remove others. Suggest solutions, don't just point out problems. :) Age, hair, eye, affiliation, role, hometown and related characters can be non-optional while voice actors and "also known as" can be optional. @JBed - related characters could be axed then. The whole point of the topic is to get feedback on refining the concept and weeding out problematic or unneeded fields of the box. Playable characters, I'd say they don't have this section because as playable characters by nature they interact with everyone.

I have suggest a solution, but it's not my fault or anybody's that infoboxes raise more problems than they solve. As my very first commentary said, this brings up the boogeyman of our coverage, which is consistency and standardization. - Henryacores^ 22:07, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

We can try to refine the idea but I think it is simply flawed. Age, eye, affiliation, and hometown are characteristics that a lot of characters simply will not have. Stella Klauser has no eye colour due to the quality of sprite graphics. We don't know if she is from Lix (unless your definition of hometown is actually current place of living... "hometown" sorta has two definitions), no age, and no real relevance to the plot of the game.

And role isn't always so easy (unless by role you mean good/neutral/bad/unknown). JBed 22:23, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

On a VERY MINOR side note, you can see Exdeath's details by looking at his 2nd alternate costume in Dissidia 012.

Why are we arguing about this? There's no harm in having an infobox only half full. Just forget the missing parts. We can list multiple job classes for the I-VI games, while everything else depends on the character. Tidus357 00:15, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

		Jeppo TALK - 10:34, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
		I did explore the idea of having an infobox for NPC's some time ago, but I scrapped the idea before putting my idea to the community on the basis because I couldn't think of any fields to put in that most NPC's would have in common. After reading this discussion, it seems that this is what a lot of users are saying as well. Having said that, I still think that all NPC's having an infobox is a good idea. An argument for the use of infoboxes which everybody has missed so far is that it can be used for the sake of the reader's convenience. All of the character's properties are in one place meaning the reader doesn't need to search high and low on the article for the information they need. There are a lot of issues that need ironing out, I can't provide an answer to all these issues. What I would say is that some of the fields' names are a little vague, such as "hometown" (Is that birthplace or residence?), and "role" (is that role in the story or job?). But I like "Affiliation", I like having the Voice Actor fields and I would also like to have the Japanese and Romaji in there too. From that we already have a base for an infobox. All we need to do is sort out the potential problems that may arise. I believe that eventually the pros would outweigh the cons.

		Tia-Lewise TALK - 11:30, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
		I'm all for the infobox. However, if the info that's in the article goes into an infobox, it might present problems for short articles that would then most likely become stubs because the info was moved. Then, while the NPC pages look a little better and more organised, stubs that can't really be expanded will be added to the To-Do List. To counteract that, maybe what goes into an NPC infobox could be different from player characters. What, I don't know yet.

		Jeppo TALK - 15:27, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
		Here are a few examples of an NPC template in action: Clicky!. I've made a couple of refinements to Drake's version. I've removed some fields pertaining to the NPC's appearance, as these are usually explained in the Appearance and Personality section, and I figured that it unnecessarily increases the size of the userbox. I've also used "Residence" instead of "Location" and "Hometown" (less ambiguous) and made most fields visible, except "aka", and the two Voice Actors. The coding of this template can be found here. I know it doesn't answer a lot of the concerns posted here, but I hope that it will address some of them. And it's still a work-in-progress. For example, what do you guys think about adding a Sprite field to the infobox?

		Keltainentoukokuu - OH YEAH AWESOME TALK - Keltainentoukokuu 16:37, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
		I think those look nice. What about characters with no big artwork like that? A character like Johnny would still look ok because of the nice renders JBed provided.

"All of the character's properties are in one place meaning the reader doesn't need to search high and low on the article for the information they need."

As was said, all this information is either trivial information like eye colour and hair colour which goes in the Appearance section (where you would expect to find it) or important information you'll find in the intro.

I see you removed the appearance stuff, so I can't comment. But what you have now is only three fields (not incl. VAs) that should go in the intro anyway. The only reason it wouldn't be is if it were a spoiler.

When your sourcing everything for the infobox from the intro, you really have to question why an infobox is really needed. And if you're going to argue that some of these things aren't in the intro, then it is a poor intro.

Also, as stated earlier, most characters don't have ages. They only do if SE gave exception to do or they mentioned it in-game.

Yes, a sprite field would be a good idea.*(well, I don't really think we should have in pcharacter infoboxes, but since we do ther) 79.69.205.188 16:43, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

The issue regarding what image to put hasn't been solved at all. A sprite field is a terrible, terrible idea, because other than screenshots, that's usually the only type of image we have of minor characters. And uploading screenshots of characters in-game for the sake of placing them at infoboxes is another awful idea: we should be frugal with image use, and never forget copyright and fair use of media. - Henryacores^ 16:51, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

... And if it isn't the only type of image we have of a character? It's not going to be a mandatory field anyway--it can't be because not all games are sprite-based.

We don't get images to fill our pages, we just spread the images we have across pages in the most efficient and logical way (usually requiring a gallery). If having a designated place for sprites is a good idea in pcharacter infoboxes then the exact same thing can apply here.*(other than the lack of battle sprites and menu portraits) 79.69.205.188 16:57, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sprites would have to be an optional field, just like voice actors are optional fields; it would only be relevant for pre-FFVII characters. I can't say I'm a fan of a sprite field either, but if they are in the pre-FFVII character templates, then for consistency they should be in this template as well.

I would say Artwork should be used for the main image, or if one isn't available, use renders, or if that isn't available either, use the sprites or models.

I'm not too bothered about the age field. You can remove it if you want. I'm not concerned about the small size of the infobox, since they don't have to be a mile high, and having a small infobox means it won't dominate the entire page even if the character in question only has a short article. Having an infobox for all characters just makes the page look more... complete. I can't explain why. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 18:06, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Also it could make things more unified, because right now Spirits Within and Final Fantasy Unlimited characters have infoboxes but Advent Children characters don't, and FFT has always had infoboxes for everyone, NPC or not.Keltainentoukokuu 18:16, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

FFT I think can be considered exceptions to our current rule, as most everyone, player and NPC, is given the same information, even job classes. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 18:19, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

This is true, but how come it doesn't apply for Tactics Advance then? I must say I'm no expert but I see they have jobs mentioned on the articles and have stats in tables even for non-player characters, but they don't have infoboxes.Keltainentoukokuu 18:25, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Because the coverage of the two wasn't done by the same guy. - Henryacores^ 18:34, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

The way I see it... you can see with enemies how infoboxes are very important. But every enemy has stats, so every enemy gets an infobox. Simple! The only time we wouldn't give an enemy an infobox is if they're from a game that doesn't have that sort of stats, which I think is the case for DoC.

Like enemies, character infoboxes exist to display information simply. There are two types of information, there is the PlayChar information like weapons and Limit Breaks, and then there are the statistical information like age, hometown, DoB. It is for these statistical information that we make infoboxes. Not just for PlayChars... they just generally are only given to PlayChars.

So why do TSW characters get infoboxes, but not AdvChildren? Because characters in TSW were given ages, heights, weights, blood types, dates of birth, birthplaces, and even info on education. For every character in TSW that has an article but not have most of those fields (unless they officially appear as "N/A" or "unknown") they should not get an infobox.

ACVII does not go into detail like that. So how do you expect us to make an infobox?

Tactics gives every character an infobox, even those that are not playable? I imagine this is because they all can fill in most of the fields.

Infoboxes are a tool used for a convenient method of displaying information. You might get the impression that it is something we do in many places, including all playable characters--- but it's got nothing to do with being playable.

When Drake first suggested a villain infobox a long time ago, I did not want it. It was because you would give it to any villain from any game. The rule for having it was that they had to be a villain. But it didn't understand what infoboxes are for. Nor does this NPC thing. When we look at a specific game, we know what things are given to character that go into the infobox. When we aim to appease the whole series, we don't get anything of value.

tl;dr: We use infoboxes to better display data. If there is data best displayed in an infobox, do it. Regardless of their status as a character, do it.

Don't make an infobox with the rule NPCs use it and have it for the sake of having an infobox. Please? 79.69.204.204 20:45, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

		Catuse says at 21:02, April 23, 2012 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		I'll keep this short and sweet: FFT characters have infoboxes because, thanks to Personae, we know all about FFT characters' vital statistics. Vital statistics = good, but if we don't have 'em, no need for an infobox. After all, all that'll be there is the romaji, "location", and Japanese. If a character is notable enough to the story that we know these things (and we don't use infoboxes for games where we don't know these things at all), then we give 'em an infobox. Otherwise, throw the infobox out the window, because it just takes up space.

Too inconsistent. Who would decide who needs an infobox and who doesn't? Either every NPC gets an infobox or nobody gets one at all. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 21:29, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

That completely misses the point in infoboxes. It's not inconsistent. If SE give the information, they get an infobox. If SE don't give information, they don't. 79.69.204.204 21:46, April 23, 2012 (UTC)