Archived discussions:
YouTube videos[]
I do not think we should rely on YouTube videos to illustrate our music articles. I myself have in the past added some of these to some pages, notably many of the Final Battle Boss themes (which, in turn, were uploaded to the Wiki's YouTube account by myself as well). But I'm beginning to think of this way of documenting the music of the series as inadequate. We should no be dependent on external sources in matters of multimedia. What if YouTube undergoes maintenance? What if the massive copyright violation YouTube represents one day gets dealt with? If we consistently use the Listen template not only we make our articles less clumped but we also avoid these things for good. Besides, not matter how much we work on the framing, the videos' window just looks ugly. All blurry and so. | |||
Fae is right on all the Youtube and copyright stuff, and I always wondered anyway, "why aren't we using that listen template as much?" Not only is it hosted here, it can be uploaded at a length so we can claim fair use (I think that is the excuse we use, if not then I misread the music policies) | |||
Don't really matter to me. Whenever I want to listen to Final Fantasy music I go straight to Youtube in the first place. Enjoy your 20/80 chance of hearing only thirty seconds of a song on the Music Template. | |||
Well, BlueH, that could be precisely one of my points. When people want to listen to a song or something, they should go to YouTube, not to the FFWiki. This is not a phonoteque. Of course, one could argue that our aim is to document everything about the Series, including the various arrangements of the various themes. Point out a way, though, that doesn't violate the copyright of said arrangements and still manages to be independent from YouTube and I'll have nothing to say. | |||
If you feel this is big an issue to you, then alternatives would be:
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Well, I have some thoughts:
This is not a "big issue" to me, but I like to receive feedback for the things I point out. The media player being broken to you is really your problem. Of course, I've repeatedly asked many users to tell me about those kinds of problems in order to find a solution and add it to our Help section. That 10% chance you speak about, well, I don't know where you get the cipher, but the player has never given me any trouble at all once I followed the indications in the Help section. And Bluer, even if I don't share your opinion on a matter, the reason I ask for a kind reply is because I want to listen to it anyway. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not. | |||
8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - {{{time}}} | |||
I would like to know how to get the ogg files to faithfully work for me, as half of the time they don't work (for me) and half of the time they take 30 seconds to load. As of this moment, I like Youtube more than oggs, because they have more variety and I can switch between songs. For example, I like setting one of my tabs to The Final Battle (Final Fantasy IX) page and listening to various renditions of the theme. I can also, from that Youtube window, switch to Dark Messenger, Roses of May, etc. etc. Now, the obvious reply is "If you like that so much, just go on Youtube!" That's a valid point, and if ogg files replaced Youtube vids on some of my favorite tunes, I might set my tab to Youtube instead. On the other hand, if all three Grand Cross ogg files were on the page, I would probably stick with the Wiki page. My view is kind of nonchalant, so... | |||
MIDI[]
Gilgameshkun - Making a mistake is not the same thing as being stupid. Making a criticism is not the same thing as making an insult. Expressing doubt is not the same thing as being contemptuous. Daring to believe you're correct is not the same thing as being a smartass. But you should cite your sources.[citation needed] TALK - 20:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
(Pardon me, Faethin asked me to comment only on the very bottom, though my thoughts have nothing to do with YouTube videos as with this section here.) As a very musically-sensitive person, my ideas on this could shift all sorts of directions, as I really care about what's practical as well as what's comprehensive. Every single song in an OST can have a nuanced and detailed description. If not all of them merit being on their own page, even a section on a larger page would do. Also, as for music samples, there is a lot of realistic concern about the fair use of recorded audio clips. But what if...we didn't always have to use oggs? Why not use MIDIs, on a case-by-case basis? MIDIs sequenced by users, judged by the keener musicians among FFWiki's staff to be orthodox and true approximations of the original song. As they are filtered through someone's audio senses and not directly-ripped samplings, they exist on a grey line between fanart and useful wiki media. This is not to say we accept every single crappy MIDI we come across for main content as long as it's permitted to be here—hence judged by more than one FFWiki musician to make sure that:
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I'm going to oppose, on the basis that fan-material, no matter how accurate or good it may be, has no place in mainspace, other than our coverage of important fan-works (8 Bit Theatre, Endless Nova etc). However, if this does go through, I'd suggest that MIDIs only be used where there is no official versions available. | |||
Fan Music[]
Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 20:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
If you want, you can arrange your own versions of the songs, record them, and upload them. Maybe not for the mainspace, but for fanstuff in general. | |||
Track List Template[]
I'm here to voice out some nitpickiness about the use of the Track List Template on our OST articles.
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What do you mean "awry"? I'd like you to be specific on the problem with the headings, as I myself see no problem at all. Content is added as much as users work on it. I myself have tried my best to fill every single field on the track lists, although I've gotten some help from users like Henry or miss Tomlin. Personally, I've mixed feelings about the songtrack template, although I lean towards its use: it is hassle, indeed, to add it to the articles, and it does, indeed, create one verylong index. But I like how it looks, and, provided the contents table is collapsed, it makes the article look nice. Yeah, it's quite late to voice your opinion now, but if the consensus were to remove the template, then I wouldn't mind very much doing so. As of now, I will continue adding it to the OST's. | |||
For one, let see an example of a page now using that template. Final Fantasy VII: Original Soundtrack - Tracklist and Disc One as well as subsequent Disc sections are main headers. The TOC is now needlessly longer than usual - of course this may be rid of by collapsing the TOC, but that's akin to hiding how lengthy the TOC is, now that it's listing every single track in there. Also, this template is unfriendly to those who are not used to template editing - editors who wish to add content won't be sure where to add them. Personally, I'd like this wiki to be easily accessed and edited without the hassle of knowing which code goes where. EDIT 14:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC): I clicked [edit] on a track title in that article to try to edit, and this is what I see: ==={{{2}}}===
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<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>
And I suppose an editor would know automatically which info goes where? After a few lessons...maybe. Point is, this is making it more complicated for some. Looks shouldn't precede editability and vice versa. EDIT 14:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC): As such, we'll start cleaning up the soundtrack pages from using the template. I would like to keep this wiki simple enough for everyone to edit, really.... | |||
Forgive my tardiness, I came in home yestereve and this matter just slipped out of my mind. I apologise. Indeed. I had never clicked on the individual [edit] link for any song. Well, then I guess you've a point: it really does look intimidating to the newbie editor. By removing the songtrack template, surely you don't mean to remove the information about each track I already added, right? I mean, We'd use subtitles instead of the template, correct? | |||
Forgive me as well; I should have actually present alternatives instead of just outright opposing the template method. And of course information should not be removed. If by subtitles you mean by the way of below, yes perhaps. I figure information that would usually be in the tracklist are Song title and/or translation and Track Length. Optionally, we might list the Composer if there's more than one - as in the later OSTs, and also occurrence or usage in game. Kinda like this:
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Do you mean something like this? | |||
| 1. いつか帰るところ (Itsuka Kaeru Tokoro, lit. "A Place to Call Home") - 2:18 |
| Composer: Nobuo Uematsu. Played during the intro movie. |
| 2. Secondtrackoftheost (Hellows) 45:34 |
| Composer: Leeroy Jenkins. Played whenever a child is told Santa doesn't exist. |
I wish I knew a little more about wiki markup. But I think I know what you mean about the collapsing. | |||
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Making them templates pretty much making it more susceptible to being abused and vandalized, which would be why I prefer less templates there. | |||
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...so are we using it or not? FFVIII's track listing is waiting. | |||
If we can overcome that issue I highlighted in my second talk bubble above, I don't see why not. The only thing matters is when it is simple to edit something. | |||
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What Bluer says is quite valid though. Assume you're a newbie editor and that you know the mere basics of editing a Wiki. If you click on [edit] expecting: track number | track name | duration | location and relevance | length And instead you get: ==={{{2}}}===
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<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>
would you not feel intimidated or confused? That is precisely what we must avoid. | |||
How's this for a provisional compromise? [[template:song]] I removed the [edit] thingy, so that, while it makes it a tad harder to edit, it certainly avoids awkward displays of coding. Off to scout for the original, Japanese titles. | |||
And now it makes it impossible to edit by track, which if I'm not mistaken is the whole point of the template. All in all, putting it back into a normal tracklist is less of a hassle. | |||
We should've started with this ¬_¬ It's the template's idea. Just no template at all. | |||
I found a way to workaround the stretching of TOC. You could say, this is OK. Only need to make the songtrack a level 4 header | |||
Done. The TOC is still showing. :S | |||
Here's what it looks like with TOClimit = 2 implemented (thanks for the template, Bluer). Much tidier, but you can't navigate to the individual sections through the TOC. I tried TOClimit 3 as well, but it didn't work. | |||
Track listing sources[]
The iTunes Catalog says something, SquareSound] says something else. Which one should we follow? Personally, I think that we should follow the most recent official listing, in this case, the iTunes catalog. However, this would create the inconvenience that we would never be able to access the source directly. | |||
Notability[]
What I believe was and should be the practice in making music articles:
- Tracks that get its own mainspace
- Tracks that reappear as other official Squenix media, such as remixes or piano arrangements.
- All originally vocal themes that are not themes for a certain location, character, event or battle.
- Tracks that do not get its own mainspace and written on their respective articles instead.
- Location themes, character themes, battle themes that are not vocalized.
- All originally vocalized track that are themes for a certain location or character.
- Battle, boss and final battle themes that do not reoccur or re-released in another version.
- Any other tracks unless they are widely recognized and had an extensive development and media coverage related.
However, links to these tracks should be retained: redirected to its relevant sections. BLUER一番 11:33, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
Here are some extracts from the previous discussions: How can I define "important" or "popular" tracks? For these traits, I propose those tracks that appear more than once outside of their respective OST, are main themes, have a lot of information available or are leitmotifs. -yours truly Character themes (although they appear on character pages), and music playing at important parts of the game [...] Popular, I donno about that. The ones that sound cool and popular among fans. "Those Who Fight Further" and "J-E-N-O-V-A" I have found are popular. TBH, all of them should be at least covered somewhere with at least a paragraph with it. -ILHI Simpler test: If you can write a paragraph on it, include it. -Yuan These are basically the only suggestions we elicited from our users back when we first discussed the policy. I believe these suggestions are in agreement with what Bluer proposes except for the bit about the leitmotifs - which is arguably something we can overlook. What I propose is a set of requirements that a musical theme has to comply with if it gets to stay as a stand-alone article; if these requirements are not met, the article is gone. This way we eliminate the need of telling with a list of "unrequirements" which themes do not stay.
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Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - Henryacores^ 17:25, June 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
Battle themes are already covered in a main battle theme page, as well as Boss themes. So in a way, they get their articles. Final battle themes should all have their own article. I defend notability as the following:
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I hate not being able to see Forums on Recent Changes. It means I miss important discussions like this. The way I see it, I believe that all songs should be mentioned somewhere. To that end, character songs should go on character pages, location songs should go on their location pages, boss songs go on boss pages (for example the song that plays during the battle with Bizarro.Sephiroth goes on that enemy article) and so on, unless they have multi-game appearances or otherwise notable, in which case they go on their own article. I'm perfectly fine with that, and that's pretty much what everybody else has said. But what about songs that don't fit anywhere else? Where do they get a mention? Songs like those that only play during cutscenes have no clear place where they should go, yet if they are not covered then there is a large gap of information. We could create an article for them, but that is probably over-the-top. What I suggest is that such songs should be covered in depth on the relevant soundtrack CD article(s). You could redirect the song title to that article and include a "gallery" of song samples on that article. That way we fill the information gap. I hope that makes sense. | |||
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - Henryacores^ 19:06, June 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
Songs played excusively during cutscenes belong to their soundtrack pages. Those pages already feature a sample section filled with some videos, which I plan to annihilate in the future. Yeah. I hate youtube videos on the wiki that much. Maybe we could add a guideline that defines which four tracks should be featured in the sample section, one of them being a cutscene-exclusive track. Also, let me remind you that this isn't a soundtrack-hosting website nor youtube. Not all musics need sample coverage. | |||
Not on-topic, but Jepp, don't click RC, use a (preferably on-browser) bookmark. Or if you use Monaco, re-link the RC to the real RC. The RC you view is just a link to the RC when forumspace is inverted. wiki/"Special:RecentChanges" is the actual RC. 88.108.124.130 12:10, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
I think we have reached an agreement where tracks that play for certain characters, locations and any other elements go to their respective articles. Good.
Tracks that have multiple arrangements mean its notoriety is recognized within the series, even if they just appear in one game; although if the track reappeared in another game title it surely deserves its own article as well. This also applies to battle themes; normal, boss or final. If they didn't meet this then a mention on the respective "Normal/Boss/Final Battle Theme" or "Original Soundtrack" article is adequate.
I have a proposal for tracks with lyrics that are not the main vocal themes of the game - a subpage of the Soundtrack article ie. "Original Soundtrack/Lyrics". That way we can compile all the lyrics together. In a way they all have their own articles. I think vocal themes could be exempt from this considering that we need to compile both the official Japanese and the official English lyrics where applicable.
As for samples, I should think the way we did the Youtube links still apply. Was it the Main theme, one Character theme, one Battle theme, and the Vocal theme? I can't remember. BLUER一番 16:56, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
May I propose the guidelines I suggested, then, to be the official guidelines? I think they're the simplest of the ones proposed and basically encompass everyone's suggestions, as far as I can see. Edit 01:07, June 22, 2010 (UTC): And I think the inclusion of non-notable or non-main theme songs in correspondent subpages is a good idea. Applying the criteria ("there's no substantial information on them" and "they are not theme songs") we can remove them from mainspace and yet keep them as a sort of stand-alone articles. | |||
8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 03:36, June 22, 2010 (UTC) | |||
I like parameters. Many of these proposed policies have much in common, but there are three points in which I think his is better:
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I think all final boss themes should get their own page. "had their own pages and were little more than two sentences" -- that's because there wasn't sufficient information on the pages, not because sufficient information does not exist. My four-sentence rule says you can get at least four sentences out of even the most pointless of things. Final boss battles you could easily get more:
- "'''''[theme name]''''' is the [[Final Boss Theme|final boss theme]] in ''[[Final Fantasy *]]''. It plays during the [[boss article|final battle]] with [[character article|[final boss character]]]. The sound starts off with [instrument] which later develops into [blahblah]. [Other music terms to form one or more sentences]. The music suits the battle since it uses (ex.)dark sounding and low-pitches instruments to match the dark arena the battle is fought in(/ex.). [some more blah]."
Now this is just me writing something generic. It could easily be longer, and with the sample there too, all is good. Plus final boss themes are usually more epic, which means the music consists of several parts. There is no reason why a final boss theme of one game can't get as much to write about as another (unless the track appears in other places of course-- but then that isn't part of the criteria, the criteria you suggest is "Final battle unless we currently don't have a lot written about it"). 88.108.115.189 15:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
Sorceror Nobody – The supreme nonentity Talk · Flan's Elbow Colosseum · MSPA Wiki · 20:04, June 25, 2010 (UTC) "I can detect matter down to one atom in a vacuum the size of the moon, and apparently, this guy doesn't exist" -- Foaly | |||
I've basically meandered into this topic out of curiosity, but I just want to mention something that I think is worth at least momentary consideration. How do we define notability of a track which is effectively repeated numerous times within the OST? The main battle theme of Final Fantasy XIII, which is Blinded by Light, doesn't have its own article. This track is not a final boss theme, and has not appeared elsewhere, but a number of tracks in FFXIII have it incorporated. Lightning's Theme and Defiers of Fate, for example. A number of games, especially the more recent ones, have this. Tons of tracks in IX are variants on Place I'll return to, and a hell of a lot of X's are either Zanarkand or Suteki da ne... Of course, these tracks have their own articles.
I doubt this is particularly important; I just thought I'd mention it. | |||
Policy added as of 07:50, July 3, 2010 (UTC).
Now who is up for some witchhunting? There are a number of music articles that need attention, and unfortunately Lady Yuan isn't here to join us. I believe those who had questioned track nobility should also join in. BLUER一番 10:58, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
Notability 2[]
Just as a reminder, what follows is our current policy on Music Articles for non-vocal themes:
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Now the problem we currently face is the following: Because of releases like Theatrhythm Final Fantasy, the Itadaki game series, and even both Dissidia games, we have been getting tons of instrumental themes that technically comply with the first rule, "It needs at least two appearances outside its OST". However, the original rules were developed in order to define what constitutes a notable track, a track worthy of a specific article in which relevant information might be found. The inclusion of several of these tracks on the aforementioned games has done little, in my opinion, to increase their notability. Dissidia, for example, does nothing in the way of expanding the tracks it uses, limiting itself to playing the original songs instead of actually rearranging them, (ie, doing little in actually transforming the song into a new item). As with all forms of consensus, I see no problem in adapting our particular policy to accommodate for the newer situation. Two of the three rules we devised to decide if an song warrants an article have been overshadowed by the fact that, all of the sudden, tons of newer, however irrelevant, remixes and "arrangements" have sprung up. I propose an expansion on the criterion of writing an article about a musical theme based on its number of appearances outside its game's OST. The modification I have in mind is simple: replace one of the "or's" with an "and" so we get the following:
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First of all, I need to correct some of your points Faethin.
- Dissidia, for example, does nothing in the way of expanding the tracks it uses, limiting itself to playing the original songs instead of actually rearranging them,
This is not true. Dissidia uses music from the titles included to represent said games. The first Dissidia has four themes per game: one per character-specific storyline, two battle themes (safe for XI and XII) and a third bonus battle theme.
- Out of the first type, 10 in 12 songs are arrangements (literally FF to FFX);
- Of the second type, 18 out of 24 are arrangements;
- The third type of songs is made of original versions of the same.
This gives us, for Dissidia, that 28 out of 48 themes from the rest of the series are arrangements, which is slightly more than half, but if we exclude the bonus themes, it changes to 28 out of 36.
For Dissidia 012, it's a similar statistic: it has three new themes per game (a dungeon theme from the game and two themes), plus a new theme for each of the new warriors of Cosmos with storylines.
- Out of the dungeon themes, 9 out of 13 are arrangements;
- Out of the new battle themes, 14 out of 26 are arrangements;
- Out of the new overworld themes, 4 out of 6 are arrangements;
So here, 27 out of 45 are arrangements. I think this includes bonus tracks, which are now 13, while in Dissidia, the OST doesn't do so.
So, putting bonus themes aside, it gives us that 80.9% of the themes featured in Dissidia are arrangements (27+28)/(36+32). I am forced to disagree with you when you say that the games limit themselves to playing original songs, when original versions, are in their majority unlockable bonuses (DFF -> 6 versus 12; D012FF -> 6 versus 13).
- all of the sudden, tons of newer, however irrelevant, remixes and "arrangements" have sprung up"
This is 100% subjective. We can't say an arrangement is more or less important based on the arranger. All arrangements must be given the same weight.
That is all, and I, (after having worked on dozens of musical articles) belive your criteria is not selective enough. I believe that for a track to be notable it needs, at least, three appearances outside its debut. These appearances include appearances in other games (independently of if is an arrangement or not, and excluding direct sequels) and arrangements. We must exclude newer appearances and arrangements associated with remakes and remasters, because that would give all FF and FFII themes three appearances; and two appearances for all FFIII, IV, V and VI themes.
Compilations, or further inclusions of older arrangements of a track should not be used to determine a track's notability because of these: Final Fantasy VII Reunion Tracks; Music from Final Fantasy X Promo CD; Final Fantasy S Generation: Official Best Collection; Final Fantasy X: Official Soundtrack. These albums (and many others) literally limit themselves to playing the original songs instead of actually rearranging them.
The core ideas are that Dissidia must count for notability and music articles should be created after three appearances and/or arrangements outside of the game. - Henryacores^ 21:00, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
I fully disagree with you in that we can't determine the importance of an arrangement. A simple appearance on an Itadaki game, a game which has never been released outside Japan, cannot be compared to a track featured on the world-wide Distant World tours. My objective is to improve the criteria upon which we determine whether a song gets an article or not. Even if we included Dissidia as an important source of new arrangements, a fact of which I am still not convinced, we are left with the problem of having non-notable themes kicked into "deserving" an article. Your only point contesting my suggestion to fix this seems to be that tracks should have at least three, as opposed to two, arrangements outside their OST. I see no problem with this at all. | |||
I think you skipped this part: These appearances include appearances in other games (independently of if is an arrangement or not, and excluding direct sequels) and arrangements.
The first part is specially important as it gives weight to Theatrhythm appearances. This is somewhat premeditated since the tracks themselves are a powerful element of the upcoming game, and I predict they will have further content after its release.
If you inspect recently edited articles, you'll see that I include Itadaki Street appearances at "Appearances outside Final Fantasy Media". I don't like to say this, but I think we all agree that the weight of these appearances is relatively smaller. - Henryacores^
Edit conflict: Absolutely agree that there should at least be three arrangements; only two arrangements would lead to an influx of sparse and probably non-notable articles. I also agree that the compilation albums that do not remix a song should not be used for notability's sake. Regarding the Dissidia tracks, I feel as if the tracks that are remixed should count for notability, while the ones that are not (e.g. Rebel Army Theme) shouldn't count. This might be too much of a double standard, though. However, I also believe that Itadaki games shouldn't contribute either. For Theatrhythm, I'm unsure. The tracks aren't remixed, but they are a big part of the game. I'm fine with either way here, but I'm leaning slightly towards making them part of notability. | |||
Without knowing much about our music coverage, I would say that increasing the number of appearances a theme needs for an article is less desirable than weighting appearances as notable and not-so-notable. But then we'd have to decide whether a circumstance counts as an appearance or not, or we'd have to come up with a points system which I don't think anyone would be interested in doing.
I also do not believe that having lots of music articles is a bad thing. It all comes down to notability. And I feel the 200 word-check is designed to counteract that.
I am on the side about whether Dissidia reuses or rearranges a track. Because in both circumstances the track is being used in Dissidia and thus increasing its notability. I am also on the side about Itadaki. Appearances outside the core-FF games surely should make it more notable because its use is not just limited to FF. But then it's a not-so-notable game.
I've never really liked the "word-limit" rule, but I am seeing how in this instance it seems like a good idea. I agree with the change Faethin proposed. 79.69.204.201 21:58, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
EDIT CONFICT: We've been basically thinking about posterior appearances of a track, and whatnot, what do we do about a track that has a smaller number of posterior arrangements, is not a main theme, but has great importance for the game itself and is a recurring motif for its game and/or subseries (Red Wings theme, Aria de Mezzo Carattere, some tracks of the Ivalice Alliance)?
I'll grab the Red Wings theme, for example: its motif is hear several times during the game, and its sequel; and it is present in the Dissidia ending theme medley, due to being on its own game's ending theme, and it has at best one or two arrangements outside its game. I'm sure there are some more examples of important themes throughout the entire inside each game of the series that have cases similar to this one, but this was a quick example. - Henryacores^ 22:06, June 19, 2012 (UTC)
This is precisely where the second part of the rule comes in. If we have enough appearances and enough information on the track then it gets its own page. Notice how the 200-word minimum is left vague in matters of its content. Coming up with a 200-word paragraph to describe a musical theme forces us to say something relevant about the track. If we cannot come up with anything, then the track cannot truly be considered notable. The Aria and The Red Wings would easily illustrate this scenario: The Aria is a very important track in terms of gameplay and popularity, included in several albums (compilations and prominent original arrangements) and functions ultimately as Celes' leitmotiff; the Red Wings is also Cecil's leitmotiff yet there is little else that can be said about it. Even if both themes have enough outside appearances, The Red Wings would not qualify because we simply don't have enough information to warrant writing an article. Edit 23:13, June 19, 2012 (UTC): Besides, the Aria is a vocal theme with lyrics. We're not dealing with vocal themes at the moment since they pose no problem: if it has lyrics, we simply must include it for completion's sake. | |||
Considering that a wide number of tracks in XIII-2 have lyrics (New Bodhum, Unseen Intruder, Village and Void, Eternal Plains etc...) are we saying that each of them deserve their own article? I mean, there is arguably enough content there, but they are not very prominent. Hence, we need to revise the clause about lyrics = automatic article. Unless we stay true to this... COOLAWITS ~TALK | YFC | XVI | DQFF~ 16:23, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
- The thing is people will want to search the wiki for lyrics and the OST wouldn't be the right place to put it. Thus, despite it being not-significant in the terms of the OST, I would personally say it should still have an article. 79.69.203.255 16:29, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I am not one to believe that a track having lyrics denotes instant notability. If these tracks only appear in one game, in one area, then few people will be looking for lyrics. I feel the 200 word rule for our music articles has been abused really, with tracks getting pages that normally would not because the lyrics fill the 200 word minimum. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 16:56, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree with lyrics = instant article as well. First off, already gives a somewhat "unfair" advantage for newer games. It also promotes songs that, as mentioned, are hardly notable at all and wouldn't otherwise be considered for a music article, like a single random area theme that happens to have lyrics. Not to mention that it would also create a problem within the rule itself: How "long" (for a lack of better term) must the lyrics be for it to be considered? I mean, Garuda's battle theme in FFXIV has just a few words, most of which you barely even hear in the song (in fact, I honestly can't hear anything other than the "now fall!" part). Yet it's a song with lyrics that would get an article purely based on that. IMO, just placing the lyrics within the music part of the appropriate area / battle / whatever article would be better than creating a standalone article for every song with lyrics. DiamondEdge (talk) 14:50, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
- The way it's been handled is that the lyrics and other info are on the character/location article under Musical Themes section, and the song name redirects there. I think it's a good system, people who want the lyrics should still be able to find them.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 15:32, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that there's a bunch of Wanted pages (Dalmasca Estersand (Theme) on the XII template, and about 7 on the Musical Themes template). If ya'll aren't going to create those then we should take them off for now. --Shockstorm (talk) 04:36, October 15, 2012 (UTC)