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{{gilgameshkun|time=12:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|text=After speaking about the matter in depth with [[User:Otherarrow]] and [[User:Yuanchosaan]], I have a proposal. |
{{gilgameshkun|time=12:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|text=After speaking about the matter in depth with [[User:Otherarrow]] and [[User:Yuanchosaan]], I have a proposal. |
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In addition, there could be additional pages for collecting fanart and fanmusic in Commons-style galleries. Not just by users for the sake of fostering community, but also ''truly'' exceptional fanart and fanmusic from the outside, by artists who grant their permission for it to be stored and displayed in the wiki. |
In addition, there could be additional pages for collecting fanart and fanmusic in Commons-style galleries. Not just by users for the sake of fostering community, but also ''truly'' exceptional fanart and fanmusic from the outside, by artists who grant their permission for it to be stored and displayed in the wiki. |
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| − | Why am I doing this? Well, after a series of events, it started to become apparent that the rules and guidelines in [[ |
+ | Why am I doing this? Well, after a series of events, it started to become apparent that the rules and guidelines in [[Project:File use]] aren't quite what they appear to be. As a relative newcomer, I started contributing media. Game media at first. Then my own fanart. Then, adhering to the written rule: |
:If you want to upload fanarts and pictures of fan-drawn comics, you must first obtain permission from the artist or writer. They own the copyright to their work, and using fanart does not qualify as fair use because it is not canon, and it is disrespectful to the artist. |
:If you want to upload fanarts and pictures of fan-drawn comics, you must first obtain permission from the artist or writer. They own the copyright to their work, and using fanart does not qualify as fair use because it is not canon, and it is disrespectful to the artist. |
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...I thought, logically, that this meant I could find good fanarts and fanmusics from people outside the wiki, secure their permission to repost it, and post it here. Having before contributed media to Wikimedia Commons, I figured that the fanart gallery was in the spirit of collecting beautiful media to display in galleries to enrich this wiki. So using this method, I secured permission for and uploaded two fanarts I considered truly exceptional: [[:Image:(SilverFenrir) Final Fantasy XI - Brothers In Arms.jpg]] and [[:Image:(Geremy Walker) Final Fantasy VI Cast.jpg]]. I was happy to upload the first one, but I realized that, as essentially non-hentai gay fanart, it didn't have broad appeal here. [[User:Diablocon]] told me it was good art and a valid upload, but made straight people uncomfortable. Then I uploaded the second picture which was universally positively received in #ffwiki. Emboldened by this, I sought to talk to Diablocon as soon as I could to make sure everything was in order. |
...I thought, logically, that this meant I could find good fanarts and fanmusics from people outside the wiki, secure their permission to repost it, and post it here. Having before contributed media to Wikimedia Commons, I figured that the fanart gallery was in the spirit of collecting beautiful media to display in galleries to enrich this wiki. So using this method, I secured permission for and uploaded two fanarts I considered truly exceptional: [[:Image:(SilverFenrir) Final Fantasy XI - Brothers In Arms.jpg]] and [[:Image:(Geremy Walker) Final Fantasy VI Cast.jpg]]. I was happy to upload the first one, but I realized that, as essentially non-hentai gay fanart, it didn't have broad appeal here. [[User:Diablocon]] told me it was good art and a valid upload, but made straight people uncomfortable. Then I uploaded the second picture which was universally positively received in #ffwiki. Emboldened by this, I sought to talk to Diablocon as soon as I could to make sure everything was in order. |
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| − | Then Diablocon said |
+ | Then Diablocon said a couple things that turned my understanding of the wiki upside down. He said that I really shouldn't post the fanart on the FFWiki fanart page, because it's for '''users only''' (not understood by me). He also said that, unless I put the fanart in a user space page, he '''couldn't let it stay'''. While it was fully acknowledged all around that I had acted in good faith and in accordance to the rules, Diablocon told me that he felt that I had made use of a flaw in the rules. And the thing was, I didn't even know I was doing it. The more I spoke with Diablocon and other users, it became clear that there were a lot of unwritten understandings, and that some of the clearly posted media rules were either not universally held in esteem, or simply ''were never tested''. As it turned out, I was unknowingly the first person ever to successfully upload outside fanart which didn't break the rules. And when the reaction to this was so mixed, it was greatly embarrassing and unsettling to me as a user. |
| − | But in talking with the others about this, and in learning about pages like [[Special:UnusedImages]] for the first time, it seemed like a shame that all this unused media—both canonical and fanart—had to be deleted simply because it was not used in articles. Diablocon for his part had not even ''heard'' of Wikimedia Commons until I mentioned the term "Commons-style" in chat and he asked what that meant. And as I discussed the matter with Otherarrow and Yuanchosaan, I thought, why ''not'' have a Commons-style network of gallery pages? It beautifies and enriches the |
+ | But in talking with the others about this, and in learning about pages like [[Special:UnusedImages]] for the first time, it seemed like a shame that all this unused media—both canonical and fanart—had to be deleted simply because it was not used in articles. Diablocon for his part had not even ''heard'' of Wikimedia Commons until I mentioned the term "Commons-style" in chat and he asked what that meant. And as I discussed the matter with Otherarrow and Yuanchosaan, I thought, why ''not'' have a Commons-style network of gallery pages? It beautifies and enriches the wiki, ''and'' the media gets used in a meaningful way. Because, let me tell you, I had already planned a huge amount of game-related media to upload too (such as all the backgrounds to FF7 and FF8 in pristine lossless PNG), and it was depressing to think that much of it might get deleted if it wasn't promptly used. In this structured gallery system, canon media and non-canon media could be neatly separated but also mutually linked, so people can browse canonical media only if they want, or fanart only if they want, or both. |
As for the criteria of inclusion of external fanart, Diablocon raised the concern that there would be a flood of unworthy outside art uploads. He told me that my fanart uploads had better be "damn exceptional". And that's not unreasonable, he's absolutely right. I have no allusions of the FFWiki being a social network or a ''full-fledged'' art community, but it would seem like a shame to completely rule out a good collection of outside fanart either. Basically, my rule of thumb would be, ''secure permission first'', but upload it only if you think it's a worthy piece of art. This may be left largely to the discretion of the uploader, since users who blatantly mass-upload the good, the bad and the ugly, would probably be pretty obvious. |
As for the criteria of inclusion of external fanart, Diablocon raised the concern that there would be a flood of unworthy outside art uploads. He told me that my fanart uploads had better be "damn exceptional". And that's not unreasonable, he's absolutely right. I have no allusions of the FFWiki being a social network or a ''full-fledged'' art community, but it would seem like a shame to completely rule out a good collection of outside fanart either. Basically, my rule of thumb would be, ''secure permission first'', but upload it only if you think it's a worthy piece of art. This may be left largely to the discretion of the uploader, since users who blatantly mass-upload the good, the bad and the ugly, would probably be pretty obvious. |
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Now, I hope that wasn't ''too'' long-winded, but I wanted to make this proposal as thorough as I could possibly think to do.}} |
Now, I hope that wasn't ''too'' long-winded, but I wanted to make this proposal as thorough as I could possibly think to do.}} |
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| + | {{OtherarrowText|text=I have mixed feelings on this, mostly the part concerning other people's fanart as I believe that the wiki should only hold user submited fan art. Besides that, I could see the use of it to hold useful images and media that would otherwise not make it into articles for whatever reason, wheither it be space, lack of a appropriate part of the article, etc. |
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| + | Oh, and for those who do not know, Gil tends to be long winded like that.}} |
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| + | {{gilgameshkun|time=12:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|text=Yeah, sorry about the long-windedness. |
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| + | But as for the fanart, we need to decide. ''Should'' there be outside fanart on the FFWiki? If not, then I'd be willing to have the two uploads deleted as controversy I didn't want in the first place. But if it truly is a concrete allowance, then the rule should be clearer, if at least to allay [[User:Diablocon]]'s genuine concern that there would be a flood of crappy outside media. |
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| + | Still, there are some outside fanart I could see truly enriching the wiki, such as [http://www.ocremix.org/ ocremix]es. Note that I tend to fluidly treat images, audio, fiction, etc. all as art.}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|17:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|My POV: We delete unused and unuseful images. Therefore our pretty unused images aren't there to need a use. If they are unused, they are not needed for the wiki. Therefore they have no need to be here. Though this may sound unreasonable, when it comes to me anyway; the icon you see at the top-right of this message was indeed lying around categories for me to accidentally find , then use it on my template. Hey, I got lucky -- I still agree unused images have little use.<br><br>Secondly, when it comes to fanart... well personally I think external hosts would be a better idea. I don't care so much for fanart, but if we must, then I'd prefer user submitted to be hosted here only.}} |
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| + | {{Bluer|17:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|Personally, I too have mixed reaction to this. For one, even if we create a "commons" as per wikipedia we would still rely on wikia servers for the storage of our media files. And then there's the whole wikia image policy that limitless may the upload number be, they should be uploaded for use in the wiki. |
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| + | Plus, we're emulating the wikipedia project if we do this. Free content is encouraged, but this may not be what we would have aim to be doing. We also encourage usermade fanart, not ones done by others already hosted somewhere in the internets.}} |
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| + | {{BlueHighwind |
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| + | |text=I've opposed this idea from the beginning for the same reasons that ILHI listed. But then I was called "a jerk" in so many words. Well, what are you going to do?}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|17:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)|??? Why? Surely there must have been a little difference.?|Scooter - Cambodia}} |
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| + | {{Yuanchosaan|time=06:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | |text=I'm against the deletion of all unused images. A number of the images are unused due to editors not realising they exist, or the images not having a suitable article to place them within (for example, the FFTA2 enemy sprites were sitting in the Special:Unusedimages until the enemy articles were created.) |
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| + | |||
| + | That said, I'm against the mass uploading of images which will remain unused. It is already extremely difficult to sort through Special:Unused for dups, copyright violations etc. I also feel that the purpose of the fanart section is to promote community spirit, and would not be bolstered by art created by non-users.}} |
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| + | {{Faethin|time=06:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|text=I strongly oppose the deletion of unused images. What would we do with all the Amano artwork that just can't be placed at the time on any page. It's idiotic to even consider it.}} |
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| + | {{Gilgameshkun|time=08:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|text=I'm strongly considering withdrawing this proposal. Though unused media and guest fanart may be unpopular to some users, I really ''did'' upload them all in good faith according to my understanding of the rules. I'm still relatively new here. All the scrutiny of the past few days has felt especially hostile and discouraging to my involvement, since I don't want to be especially controversial. But I believe you all are good editors and know at least some of what you are doing and that gives you all a strong purpose here. |
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| + | |||
| + | Anyway, I've been assured that the guest fanart will not be deleted as long as it's in a gallery and it's fairly good. And Yuanchosaan said "unused images could be useful, and that good faith uploads can't be punished." So how about this? I'll continue doing what I do, and you all continue doing what you do, and as long as we're all reasonably following the posted rules, we try not to step on each other's toes too much. :3 My toes are sore enough lately... Afterall, we're here for a bigger reason than just ourselves. We're here for the wiki, to improve the wiki, and to enrich the wiki. And that's been my sincere desire ever since I registered my account. We may all just have different ideas (and ideals) of how to do that. Not a problem—plurality of opinion is good, as long as it's respectful and civil.}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|16:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|Hey dear illogical Fae, I be the idiot you speak of.<br><br>''What would we do with all the Amano artwork that just can't be placed at the time on any page''<br><br>We delete it? It's not being used, the wiki has no need for it right now. If we do have a use for it, then we use it, or if it WILL have a use, we keep it... but if we don't have a use, then we delete it. Of course, if access to the image is limited on the web, then we shall keep it uploaded. Eg. The FFVIIPS3 character images. Though they're being used so it doesn't matter. Point being, your logic doesn't make sense. If they cannot be placed on the page THEN THEY HAVE NO USE! Use the images if we need them, and if we don't they can go. We are a wiki and our content is the content you see across mainspace. Our hidden away images are unneeded for the wiki and are there as an addition. As we only host images here to be used on the wiki, and not for our personal gallery sake they can be deleted. We are a wiki, and not an image hosting site. We are a wiki, and not a Final Fantasy gallery. You get that? Unused images are generally unneeded images. If they're not, then use them, because if they aren't on pages then they aren't being used, therefore have no use. Y'get me?}} |
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| + | {{Faethin|time=16:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|text=No.}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|17:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|For simplicity's sake: |
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| + | *Wiki - About information. Hosts information, with additional images to make it look nicer. |
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| + | *Gallery - About images. Hosts images, with additional info for people to understand. |
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| + | This is wiki. Images make pages look nicer. Unused images don't make pages look nicer, have no use, and are therefore useless and may as well be gone from the wiki. If they can be used, use them. If they will have future use, keep them.}} |
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| + | {{BlueHighwind |
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| + | |text=I guess I don't fully agree with ILHI on this issue. Images that could be used and certainly very well could serve a purpose should be saved. Images that are impractical due to size, do not show a clear picture of their subject, and/or do not appear on the wiki due to a coding issue or whatever should be removed.}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|18:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|2=???? Images that serve a purpose, or in future could serve a purpose should be kept. If they are just laying their, being an image for another game which won't appear in the article, eg. The White Mage used on my talkbubble, then it has no reason to be here. Except not the White Mage because it now has a use. But the Black Mage icon can still go. The icon will never appear on a mainspace page on this wiki... probably. Anyway, if we change our mind, we can reupload it. But this is just my opinion on what the wiki should do.}} |
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| + | {{Faethin|time=19:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|text=Amano's artwork (and Nomura's and every other artist's conceptual and additional drawings) are part of the Final Fantasy Canon. Just because they are not displayed in a page, does not mean they are useless. It means that Gil is actually right and that the body of works that are part of said canon is far more varied than text and a few images and, sparingly, a couple of audio files. |
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| + | Illogical, huh. Those who say my stance is illogical are called shortsighted.}} |
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| + | {{Bluer|19:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|Official images won't be deleted, they are listed in the Artwork Image Category of each title for viewing pleasure. ...Please don't be too literal...}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|19:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|Fae, you called me stupid for having a stance which I can back-up with reasons.<br><br>As for official arts and stuff, they should have no need to be deleted, they should be in pages otherwise they have little purpose on the wiki. They're just there otherwise. Just because they're official arts doesn't give them a reason laze around the wiki (wait, laze around? that doesn't make much sense) when they could be doing their job in articles. Y'see, my point is images that won't go into articles won't go into articles... Does anyone actually listen to this yet? If it has a use it stays. But does [[:Image:Hoops BM.jpg|Mr. Black Mage]] really do anything for this wiki? Not really, I stumbled upon him only accidentally.}} |
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| + | {{Bluer|20:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|Well, for one thing, some of the official images uploaded here are rare. I never really could stumble upon them in the internets. That said, I prefer official Square images, and I would not delete them even if you try to make me. Usage is debatable, but if you can find an opening for its use, then don't hesitate to use them. As for fanart, as long as it uses our Copyright template and fill out its parameters, then that's fine with me.}} |
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| + | {{User:ILHI/T|20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)|You have points. As mentioned earlier, rare artwork should be hosted here. But I shall exit this discussion here, with this: There are millions of Final Fantasy non-fanart images on the web that could be hosted here but are not. They are not hosted here, now if they were and had no use would they be ridded of? In the end it is Admin's choice, but if an image is to go unused, in my books, the images shall go.<br><br>I only ever upload images to use in articles. Replaced images should be deleted not uploaded over. Images remaining on the wiki, uploaded, maybe added but replaced............}} |
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| + | {{Yuanchosaan|time=01:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | |text=The images may not have a purpose ''yet''. This does not mean they will never have a purpose - these may inserted in new articles, used to replace other images, used in talk templates etc. You use the example of your talk template image as something you just stumbled upon. However, if all images which are not currently being used are deleted, no one would be able to stumble upon them and ''find a use''. Not every user is able to find and upload images as they need to - they must rely on images which are already on this wiki.}} |
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Latest revision as of 04:44, 12 December 2020
Gilgameshkun - Making a mistake is not the same thing as being stupid. Making a criticism is not the same thing as making an insult. Expressing doubt is not the same thing as being contemptuous. Daring to believe you're correct is not the same thing as being a smartass. But you should cite your sources.[citation needed] TALK - 12:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
After speaking about the matter in depth with User:Otherarrow and User:Yuanchosaan, I have a proposal. The Final Fantasy Wiki should have a collection of media categories, à la Wikimedia Commons. Media for media's sake. This way, lots of different stock art and audio is not only neatly and logically organized in sections (rather than alphabetically in categories), but provides beautiful and more convenient browsing interface for media. In this sense, the FFWiki would not be merely just like Wikipedia, but also like Wikimedia Commons in terms of gallery functions. Not only this, but it could neatly host otherwise unused media that are currently and tediously collected in Special:UnusedImages. The logic behind this is that even if they are not used in the wiki article pages, they are used for media gallery pages, thus doing more than sitting idle in a category, but contributing to the value and richness of the wiki as a whole. In addition, there could be additional pages for collecting fanart and fanmusic in Commons-style galleries. Not just by users for the sake of fostering community, but also truly exceptional fanart and fanmusic from the outside, by artists who grant their permission for it to be stored and displayed in the wiki. Why am I doing this? Well, after a series of events, it started to become apparent that the rules and guidelines in Project:File use aren't quite what they appear to be. As a relative newcomer, I started contributing media. Game media at first. Then my own fanart. Then, adhering to the written rule:
...I thought, logically, that this meant I could find good fanarts and fanmusics from people outside the wiki, secure their permission to repost it, and post it here. Having before contributed media to Wikimedia Commons, I figured that the fanart gallery was in the spirit of collecting beautiful media to display in galleries to enrich this wiki. So using this method, I secured permission for and uploaded two fanarts I considered truly exceptional: Image:(SilverFenrir) Final Fantasy XI - Brothers In Arms.jpg and Image:(Geremy Walker) Final Fantasy VI Cast.jpg. I was happy to upload the first one, but I realized that, as essentially non-hentai gay fanart, it didn't have broad appeal here. User:Diablocon told me it was good art and a valid upload, but made straight people uncomfortable. Then I uploaded the second picture which was universally positively received in #ffwiki. Emboldened by this, I sought to talk to Diablocon as soon as I could to make sure everything was in order. Then Diablocon said a couple things that turned my understanding of the wiki upside down. He said that I really shouldn't post the fanart on the FFWiki fanart page, because it's for users only (not understood by me). He also said that, unless I put the fanart in a user space page, he couldn't let it stay. While it was fully acknowledged all around that I had acted in good faith and in accordance to the rules, Diablocon told me that he felt that I had made use of a flaw in the rules. And the thing was, I didn't even know I was doing it. The more I spoke with Diablocon and other users, it became clear that there were a lot of unwritten understandings, and that some of the clearly posted media rules were either not universally held in esteem, or simply were never tested. As it turned out, I was unknowingly the first person ever to successfully upload outside fanart which didn't break the rules. And when the reaction to this was so mixed, it was greatly embarrassing and unsettling to me as a user. But in talking with the others about this, and in learning about pages like Special:UnusedImages for the first time, it seemed like a shame that all this unused media—both canonical and fanart—had to be deleted simply because it was not used in articles. Diablocon for his part had not even heard of Wikimedia Commons until I mentioned the term "Commons-style" in chat and he asked what that meant. And as I discussed the matter with Otherarrow and Yuanchosaan, I thought, why not have a Commons-style network of gallery pages? It beautifies and enriches the wiki, and the media gets used in a meaningful way. Because, let me tell you, I had already planned a huge amount of game-related media to upload too (such as all the backgrounds to FF7 and FF8 in pristine lossless PNG), and it was depressing to think that much of it might get deleted if it wasn't promptly used. In this structured gallery system, canon media and non-canon media could be neatly separated but also mutually linked, so people can browse canonical media only if they want, or fanart only if they want, or both. As for the criteria of inclusion of external fanart, Diablocon raised the concern that there would be a flood of unworthy outside art uploads. He told me that my fanart uploads had better be "damn exceptional". And that's not unreasonable, he's absolutely right. I have no allusions of the FFWiki being a social network or a full-fledged art community, but it would seem like a shame to completely rule out a good collection of outside fanart either. Basically, my rule of thumb would be, secure permission first, but upload it only if you think it's a worthy piece of art. This may be left largely to the discretion of the uploader, since users who blatantly mass-upload the good, the bad and the ugly, would probably be pretty obvious. Now, I hope that wasn't too long-winded, but I wanted to make this proposal as thorough as I could possibly think to do. | |||
_Final_Fantasy_XI_-_Brothers_In_Arms.jpg){kind=link}
_Final_Fantasy_VI_Cast.jpg){kind=link}
I have mixed feelings on this, mostly the part concerning other people's fanart as I believe that the wiki should only hold user submited fan art. Besides that, I could see the use of it to hold useful images and media that would otherwise not make it into articles for whatever reason, wheither it be space, lack of a appropriate part of the article, etc. Oh, and for those who do not know, Gil tends to be long winded like that. | |||
Gilgameshkun - Making a mistake is not the same thing as being stupid. Making a criticism is not the same thing as making an insult. Expressing doubt is not the same thing as being contemptuous. Daring to believe you're correct is not the same thing as being a smartass. But you should cite your sources.[citation needed] TALK - 12:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
Yeah, sorry about the long-windedness. But as for the fanart, we need to decide. Should there be outside fanart on the FFWiki? If not, then I'd be willing to have the two uploads deleted as controversy I didn't want in the first place. But if it truly is a concrete allowance, then the rule should be clearer, if at least to allay User:Diablocon's genuine concern that there would be a flood of crappy outside media. Still, there are some outside fanart I could see truly enriching the wiki, such as ocremixes. Note that I tend to fluidly treat images, audio, fiction, etc. all as art. | |||
My POV: We delete unused and unuseful images. Therefore our pretty unused images aren't there to need a use. If they are unused, they are not needed for the wiki. Therefore they have no need to be here. Though this may sound unreasonable, when it comes to me anyway; the icon you see at the top-right of this message was indeed lying around categories for me to accidentally find , then use it on my template. Hey, I got lucky -- I still agree unused images have little use.
Secondly, when it comes to fanart... well personally I think external hosts would be a better idea. I don't care so much for fanart, but if we must, then I'd prefer user submitted to be hosted here only. ILHI 17:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I too have mixed reaction to this. For one, even if we create a "commons" as per wikipedia we would still rely on wikia servers for the storage of our media files. And then there's the whole wikia image policy that limitless may the upload number be, they should be uploaded for use in the wiki. Plus, we're emulating the wikipedia project if we do this. Free content is encouraged, but this may not be what we would have aim to be doing. We also encourage usermade fanart, not ones done by others already hosted somewhere in the internets. | |||
I've opposed this idea from the beginning for the same reasons that ILHI listed. But then I was called "a jerk" in so many words. Well, what are you going to do? | |||
??? Why? Surely there must have been a little difference.? ILHI 17:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm against the deletion of all unused images. A number of the images are unused due to editors not realising they exist, or the images not having a suitable article to place them within (for example, the FFTA2 enemy sprites were sitting in the Special:Unusedimages until the enemy articles were created.)
That said, I'm against the mass uploading of images which will remain unused. It is already extremely difficult to sort through Special:Unused for dups, copyright violations etc. I also feel that the purpose of the fanart section is to promote community spirit, and would not be bolstered by art created by non-users. | |||
I strongly oppose the deletion of unused images. What would we do with all the Amano artwork that just can't be placed at the time on any page. It's idiotic to even consider it. | |||
Gilgameshkun - Making a mistake is not the same thing as being stupid. Making a criticism is not the same thing as making an insult. Expressing doubt is not the same thing as being contemptuous. Daring to believe you're correct is not the same thing as being a smartass. But you should cite your sources.[citation needed] TALK - 08:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
I'm strongly considering withdrawing this proposal. Though unused media and guest fanart may be unpopular to some users, I really did upload them all in good faith according to my understanding of the rules. I'm still relatively new here. All the scrutiny of the past few days has felt especially hostile and discouraging to my involvement, since I don't want to be especially controversial. But I believe you all are good editors and know at least some of what you are doing and that gives you all a strong purpose here. Anyway, I've been assured that the guest fanart will not be deleted as long as it's in a gallery and it's fairly good. And Yuanchosaan said "unused images could be useful, and that good faith uploads can't be punished." So how about this? I'll continue doing what I do, and you all continue doing what you do, and as long as we're all reasonably following the posted rules, we try not to step on each other's toes too much. :3 My toes are sore enough lately... Afterall, we're here for a bigger reason than just ourselves. We're here for the wiki, to improve the wiki, and to enrich the wiki. And that's been my sincere desire ever since I registered my account. We may all just have different ideas (and ideals) of how to do that. Not a problem—plurality of opinion is good, as long as it's respectful and civil. | |||
Hey dear illogical Fae, I be the idiot you speak of.
What would we do with all the Amano artwork that just can't be placed at the time on any page
We delete it? It's not being used, the wiki has no need for it right now. If we do have a use for it, then we use it, or if it WILL have a use, we keep it... but if we don't have a use, then we delete it. Of course, if access to the image is limited on the web, then we shall keep it uploaded. Eg. The FFVIIPS3 character images. Though they're being used so it doesn't matter. Point being, your logic doesn't make sense. If they cannot be placed on the page THEN THEY HAVE NO USE! Use the images if we need them, and if we don't they can go. We are a wiki and our content is the content you see across mainspace. Our hidden away images are unneeded for the wiki and are there as an addition. As we only host images here to be used on the wiki, and not for our personal gallery sake they can be deleted. We are a wiki, and not an image hosting site. We are a wiki, and not a Final Fantasy gallery. You get that? Unused images are generally unneeded images. If they're not, then use them, because if they aren't on pages then they aren't being used, therefore have no use. Y'get me? ILHI 16:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
No. | |||
For simplicity's sake:
- Wiki - About information. Hosts information, with additional images to make it look nicer.
- Gallery - About images. Hosts images, with additional info for people to understand.
This is wiki. Images make pages look nicer. Unused images don't make pages look nicer, have no use, and are therefore useless and may as well be gone from the wiki. If they can be used, use them. If they will have future use, keep them. ILHI 17:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't fully agree with ILHI on this issue. Images that could be used and certainly very well could serve a purpose should be saved. Images that are impractical due to size, do not show a clear picture of their subject, and/or do not appear on the wiki due to a coding issue or whatever should be removed. | |||
???? Images that serve a purpose, or in future could serve a purpose should be kept. If they are just laying their, being an image for another game which won't appear in the article, eg. The White Mage used on my talkbubble, then it has no reason to be here. Except not the White Mage because it now has a use. But the Black Mage icon can still go. The icon will never appear on a mainspace page on this wiki... probably. Anyway, if we change our mind, we can reupload it. But this is just my opinion on what the wiki should do. ILHI 18:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Amano's artwork (and Nomura's and every other artist's conceptual and additional drawings) are part of the Final Fantasy Canon. Just because they are not displayed in a page, does not mean they are useless. It means that Gil is actually right and that the body of works that are part of said canon is far more varied than text and a few images and, sparingly, a couple of audio files. Illogical, huh. Those who say my stance is illogical are called shortsighted. | |||
Official images won't be deleted, they are listed in the Artwork Image Category of each title for viewing pleasure. ...Please don't be too literal... | |||
Fae, you called me stupid for having a stance which I can back-up with reasons.
As for official arts and stuff, they should have no need to be deleted, they should be in pages otherwise they have little purpose on the wiki. They're just there otherwise. Just because they're official arts doesn't give them a reason laze around the wiki (wait, laze around? that doesn't make much sense) when they could be doing their job in articles. Y'see, my point is images that won't go into articles won't go into articles... Does anyone actually listen to this yet? If it has a use it stays. But does Mr. Black Mage really do anything for this wiki? Not really, I stumbled upon him only accidentally. ILHI 19:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, for one thing, some of the official images uploaded here are rare. I never really could stumble upon them in the internets. That said, I prefer official Square images, and I would not delete them even if you try to make me. Usage is debatable, but if you can find an opening for its use, then don't hesitate to use them. As for fanart, as long as it uses our Copyright template and fill out its parameters, then that's fine with me. | |||
You have points. As mentioned earlier, rare artwork should be hosted here. But I shall exit this discussion here, with this: There are millions of Final Fantasy non-fanart images on the web that could be hosted here but are not. They are not hosted here, now if they were and had no use would they be ridded of? In the end it is Admin's choice, but if an image is to go unused, in my books, the images shall go.
I only ever upload images to use in articles. Replaced images should be deleted not uploaded over. Images remaining on the wiki, uploaded, maybe added but replaced............ ILHI 20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The images may not have a purpose yet. This does not mean they will never have a purpose - these may inserted in new articles, used to replace other images, used in talk templates etc. You use the example of your talk template image as something you just stumbled upon. However, if all images which are not currently being used are deleted, no one would be able to stumble upon them and find a use. Not every user is able to find and upload images as they need to - they must rely on images which are already on this wiki. | |||