Okay, so as anyone who is paying attention has noticed, despite an absolutely immense community consensus in favour of it, TA has not promoted Scathe to bcrat. His given excuse is that "We have traditionally had only one active bcrat [and] the tradition is also that our bcrats have appointed successors without a vote". Neither of these is a tradition, much less anything close to a policy. CSM and Diablo were certainly co-active, and Diablo promoting TA without any community discussion whatsoever was not received well at all, which indicates that it was not a given as far as the community is concerned.
Ultimately, the job of a bcrat is to comply with the wishes of the community when it comes to granting user rights, and there is no excuse for not doing so when the consensus for Scathe's promotion is so incredibly strong.
Okay, first TA's statement: Diablo was promoted to work alongside CSM. This occurred so there wasn't a dictatorship. Resulting events made CSM leave shortly later, but they co-existed and were intended to co-exist. We wanted another bcrat because Diablo was becoming inactive, and she promoted TA (which was not in-line with the community, and I don't believe this was taken well -- but you won't be able to tell from evidence on the wiki). Additionally: CSM and Diablo were both promoted after a consensus, and Shane doesn't count. So only TA falls into that box.
There have been two threads where consensus for promoting a new bcrat has been found, and promoting Scathe to be that bcrat, and nothing has happened in either circumstance. I will assume the first case is another case of me being the only to raise complaints to the person in question on-wiki.
It was practically agreed before the staff promotions that it would be up to the admins to decide who gets promoted. And that means a consensus from the admins, and the bcrat does not get veto power because that is not the role this wiki gives the bcrat in our democracy. I think a few people are too frightful or non-confrontational to admit this outwardly.
So here's what I want: Scathe to be bcrat. Not only should it have been done anyway, with only TA having actual power, it's basically just a dictatorship where decisions are based on the likes or dislikes of that one person.
And here's what I also want: When the community disagrees with the decision of someone on staff because they are following consensus (the desire of the community), say so on the wiki. Things will not get resolved otherwise. JBed (talk) 17:01, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
ScatheMote 2013: A Kinder, Gentler Wiki!
But in all seriousness: Uch, wikipolitics. Wikipolitics go nowhere for the same reason real politics go nowhere: people don't like to admit they're wrong when it comes to staff discussions. I sure know I don't, and there are plenty of other examples of this. Case in point: last night, four hour long argument on freenode (not in #wikia-ff, too many side conversations would make it impossible to follow). I'll post logs with permission, but basically, TA says he doesn't want to promote Scathe because aside from considering it unnecessary, he doesn't really know Scathe well enough to trust him, same reason that Diablo promoted TA back in 2011 and got this ridiculous show on the road. Fae brings up the points mentioned above. Scathe, the other admins, and I also give input every so often. Nothing changes after the discussion, except that everyone agrees to meet back, same place, same time, tomorrow. Meanwhile, some empty threats are bandied around in #wikia-ff about going to Wikia staff, and TA still doesn't give in.So, as much as I'd like to have Scathe as a bcrat, this isn't a dictatorship under TA (we are the Republic of Final Fantasy), and the whole "one bcrat at a time thing" doesn't make any sense, let's face it, the wiki isn't going to end tomorrow if Scathe isn't made ASAP.
This issue is as simple as this: There is a majority of active users that have expressed confidence in Scathe and a desire to see him as a bureaucrat. Nothing more, nothing less. TA refuses to promote him on the baseless reasons of "tradition", a tradition, as SN points out, that doesn't even exist.
I'd like to also bring out the reason TA expressed in the IRC as to why he was concerned about promoting Scathe: he said he wasn't familiar enough with him. While the fact that the current bureaucrat is not familiar with the single most active admin before the most recent promotions is worrying enough, it brings to mind the incident where TA was promoted to bureaucrat by Diablo, being one of the only feasible admins that Diablo really knew. Tell me, if Diablo had taken community input into account before promoting a bureaucrat, does anybody really think we would have TA as one right now?Now, while I am sure that everyone appreciates TA performing promotions in the wake of Diablo's absence, an active, helpful, approachable bureaucrat could help to serve as the face of the wiki when approached by outside parties such as Wikia. And while TA is nowhere near as difficult to reach as Diablo was before her departure from the Wiki, I am sure everyone would appreciate a bureaucrat that was easier to get a hold of. Moreover, the community overwhelmingly supports this decision. No voice has spoken out in opposition of Scathe as a bureaucrat, and the support is easy to see. TA says he's not familiar with the candidate and is concerned about what will happen, but is the overwhelming trust placed in him by the community at large not enough? If TA is not willing to trust the majority word of the community he speaks for, is he really fit to be the sole leader of it?
When I spoke to Scathe earlier he said we shouldn't worry about what does or doesn't happen to him, but that doesn't clear up the fact that TA has openly snubbed our support, our opinions and ultimately what we know is a beneficial promotion for the Wiki. Some may not agree but I'm of the opinion that we should have at least two active bcrats, as what with TA being absent quite a lot, if he were to leave entirely we would be without the means to promote any more mods/admins without having a good moan to Wikia, and we would lose our sole spokesperson and the go-to for Wikia grunts.TA doesn't know me at all, yet he saw fit to promote me, so why not Scathe? Scathe has been around a lot longer than me, done so much more, and the admiration the Wiki hold for him is highly noticable. I hope that TA can realise that we need this, and whether he knows Scathe or not, his support as an extra bcrat wouldn't go unnoticed. I'll be very disappointed if this whole thing is so that TA can retain a guise of power and doesn't want to share.
I wholeheartedly support Scathe for bureaucrat, and I believe that he would do a sterling job as a co-figurehead for the wiki.
However, much as some may object to it, this is ultimately TA's decision as the Wiki's current active bureaucrat. We do not need a new bureaucrat urgently, and, whilst I believe that Scathe would indeed make a perfect bureaucrat right now, TA is quite within his rights to hold off promotion until he is more familiar with Scathe. Contacting Wikia is a largely empty threat, and will in all probability not get the result you want. TA is not in violation of Wikia policies, and Wikia tend not to interfere with general wikipolitics.Furthermore, the attitude of certain users in this discussion both here and to a greater extend on IRC is disrespectful to TA in a most unhelpful manner - regardless of your view of the situation, decorum is still important to maintain.
- ^No, it isn't. It's not our fault if your prissy little feelings get hurt. Unlike your country, there's no rule or expectation here that people have a right to not be offended. Anyways, very simply, TA needs to learn to share. If not, then it's time to get Wikia involved. And finally, no, contacting Wikia is not useless, they just don't like to interfere if there isn't community support and discussion beforehand. --Shockstorm (talk) 04:58, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
- "No, it isn't" It is, if you want shouting matches with no decorum, go to 4chan. Wikis are part of the civilised part of the web, where we refute each other's arguments rather than deride them for living in a different country. It is not so much that his feelings have been hurt (Ark has feelings?) it is more that the attitude people have taken towards TA is not conducive to getting TA to do what they want. "Wikia is not useless" I'm not sure I even need to say anything. It honestly depends on which staff member is made aware of this matter, and a good number of them would just be like "You already have a BCrat, I don't need to do anything." User:R8.50Mango/Sig2 11:35, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
The role of B-crat is not simply the guy to contact when we decide to promote new staff. B-crat is the unofficial leader of the Wiki, perhaps in only a figurehead manner but they are still our leader, in a manner. If something major for the Wiki is going down like Wikia wanting to promote MM3 or Square-Enix wanting to set up a liason with us or whatever the point of that notion was, it's the B-crat's job to handle it.
TA may be around when we need him, but he ought to be around all the time familiarizing himself with our policies, userbase, and current activities, so if circumstances need a B-crat to act in the role of the Wiki's leader, he can do so with the faith of the community. That TA claims he has no idea who Scathe is when Scathe is publicly a major face of the Wiki (co-hosting MM3 and the DNC, spearheading the original LP) and a very active contributor shows he is out of touch with the community, and this incident in tandem with many past issues show that he cannot always be relied upon to represent the community's wishes in a fair manner, as he often acts obstructive before complying. It is a simple statement and not an unfair one, but this incident highlights a recurring problem of TA, that he does what he likes when he likes even if community word conflicts with his own opinion. How many of us can say with absolute confidence that if needed, they would trust TA to always act in the best interests of the community based on what the community has to say about whatever issue has come up? Because we should absolutely be able to trust the B-crat to do so, that is part of their role.
Scathe would give us the type of B-crat we would need to handle important Wiki matters and represent the community when we need representation. TA is not that B-crat.
I couldn't have said it better myself. There's naught more to add on my part. So, we must decide our course of action. TA should be informed before we decide to go over his head, that's only fair, but will we do this, and if so, when?
Thank you for the vote of confidence, TA, but I think Scathe would be a much better choice for bureaucrat. He is more active than I am in the mainspace, and I have lost contact with the community and wikipolicy. I'm still readily contactable via IRC and would increase my activity if made a bcrat, but the wiki needs someone who can be both a leader and a "face" for the community. I'd be more of a figurehead.
Despite my wholehearted support of Scathe, I would oppose going to Wikia. Not simply because the desired resolution may not be achieved, but because I believe it would be poisonous for the wiki's community regardless of the outcome. The focus has been on making an additional bcrat (and really, TA has done nothing that would warrant removing rights, and I would not support doing so), which means that afterwards, everyone will still have to work with both bureaucrats. I cannot imagine it would be very pleasant if an outside presence such as Wikia forced TA to work with someone. If Wikia does support TA's decision, then there will always be this record of open animosity (pleasant working conditions again) and the community will be even further from the sort of system it desires. Calling in Wikia is always a lengthy and tiring process, and I would much prefer if we could work out something peacefully on this wiki alone.
TA, I owe you an apology. I (and I think many others) have been acting under the assumption that you opposed Scathe's nomination in bad faith - I didn't understand your reasoning at all, and it seemed that you were being deliberately contrary. I confess I still don't really understand why you oppose it to such a degree, but after reading your post, I realised I should have assumed good faith and not have acted in the way I have.
I still think that Scathe ought to be made a bcrat (Drake outlines the reasons admirably). I don't think it's right that a bcrat should ignore the wishes of the entire community. This may be how other wikis work, and what is tolerated (or even supported) by Wikia, but it is not the attitude that the FF Wiki community operates under. Bcrats are important, yes, but without the community, the wiki is nothing.
With this in mind, and because I wanted a more peaceful solution (edit at 12:47, July 22, 2013 (UTC) to explain why I did not notify other users: and a quiet one which would create the minimum of fuss for Diablo) that did not involve Wikia, I informed Diablocon earlier today of the situation. It is what seemed the best course of action to me at the time (before TA had posted), but I somewhat regret doing so now. It is better that it is kept within the wiki, and I do believe that it's in the community's rights to ask the other bcrat to consider the situation as well. However, I'm sorry (to TA and the wider community) for doing so because it will still cause tension in the wiki and involves side-stepping TA's concerns.I stand by what I have done and will accept the consequences of it. You can find me in the village stocks if the community and/or TA wish to throw some tomatoes at me. :p
Well, I promptly logged on and ate Yuan's tomatoes. I suppose I should offer my own apology for running my potty mouth, but those who know me here know I'm a highly passionate person and I'm not afraid to speak my mind. I see it's not in bad faith, and if you would take this opportunity to get to know Scathe better, I'm sure the whole Wiki would appreciate it.Yuan, Diablocon is a bcrat, same as TA, I don't see anything wrong with informing her about your concerns. You're no snitch, you're a concerned member of the community and Diablo has every right to oversee things if she thinks it's worth it. I await the reply, and TA, thank you for informing us more fully of your reasoning.
Edit as of 17:41, July 22, 2013 (UTC): My opinion has changed at this point in time to return to the running. Look at my comment below.
Alright, so here I am, finally commenting on the forum that is ostensibly about me. Firstly, I am both flattered and happy to hear the outpouring of support for me as bureaucrat. Please don't think that all your advocacy was for nothing, since it at least made me happy.
However, as much as I like all of you and your support, I cannot in good faith take the position of bureaucrat at this point in time. I will admit that I hadn't had much contact with TA until very recently and that I don't know how compatible we are. However, regardless of TA's or anyone else's arguments, I myself don't feel comfortable with taking the position in such a way. I don't want to become a bureaucrat against the wishes of my predecessor. If there's any way to create strife between two bureaucrats, it's through that.
This is not to say that I don't want the position; naturally, I do. Three and a half years ago, I wanted modship. Two and half years ago, I wanted adminship. However, what I don't want now more than anything is more conflict; promoting me now would create more conflict. I'm sure that I would eventually get the position if the discussion were to continue to drag on, but I just wouldn't be happy. I'm honored that people feel so strongly about my qualifications for bureaucrat, but I feel uncomfortable with the negative portrait of TA. Promoting me may be what consensus wants, but it's not what I want. Can really I represent the community if my thoughts on my very promoting differ from those of the community? I can't be a bureaucrat yet, I don't think. Maybe some other day.
TA and I talked last night on the IRC. We don't have any bad feelings at this point in time, and I don't want to create any by placing me into the role of bureaucrat against his wishes. I do believe that TA agrees with the community that I am capable of the position; he disagrees with at what point in time I should be promoted. If at any point TA decides that I am worthy of the position and working with him, I would take it gladly right then and there.Anyway, that's what I have to say. Thanks again to everyone who supported my promotion.
Against the wishes of your predecessor but in the wishes of the entire community, but you care most about the opinion of the person who abuses their power? Okay, sure, whatever.
I have no respect for your decision. You're just as bad as TA is in this situation. This entire thing is about TA not acting properly, and him not having the right to decide above everyone else. If avoiding conflict is your goal then what? Sure, we've lost the most recent thing to be annoyed about, but we're in the exact same boat we were in before.
This is about avoiding a dictatorship. And the only way we can possibly avoid this without waking the dead (inactive crats) is through a forum like this. This is our only channel, and you throw it all away because you don't want conflict, and are more satisfied when the entire wiki is suppressed by a dictator?
- He wants to be bcrat, he just doesn't want to become bcrat when any sort of friction is involved. JBed (talk) 17:09, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
Oh no, big nasty TA is ruining our lives again with his brutal tyranny! We are but slaves to a brutal taskmaster who will slaughter our rights and rape our wives. I'm already sewing my wife's vagina shut just in case TA decides to violate her.
Sorry, I'm not very subtle with satire.
Anyway, I voted for Scathe to be Bcrat, but not because of what the wiki needs or any long term importance of who runs the show. Just because I like Scathe, he seems like he would be not very controversial. Which would also mean, he probably wouldn't change anything in terms of who runs things. We could just bully him around because we don't like TA (and I guess I'm the only one who does like TA and has nothing but a positive view of his year or so of Bcratitude). Why do we need another Bcrat?
I notice we are very good at panicing and causing a nice little circus whenever some very vocal members get angry. Remember that nice hurricane you all started in the FFVIII LP Forum? Yeah, letting the mob run things at this wiki is definitely the best answer. Here's the deal, children, the way we've had our Bcrats work in the past - I dunno five years now - has been fine. They haven't been major figures in the wiki politics, they've just been the guys there doing what needs to be done occasionally. Do you want a strong Bcrat that isn't that active on the wiki? Or a weak one that is?And before we panic over democracy, remember, Scathe is like 17. TA is in his thirties. One of them I know for a face will be here in five years. Another, who knows where life will take him?
Remember that nice hurricane you all started in the FFVIII LP Forum?
As was explained very clearly at the time, that had been a long time coming, and the appearance of it being a sudden change in community view was solely down to the fact that everyone had kept quiet and non-confrontational until things crossed the line many were willing to tolerate in silence. This discussion, however, was started within 24 hours of the event (or, lack thereof), precisely to avoid the drama caused by that illusion of suddenness.
Do you want a strong Bcrat that isn't that active on the wiki? Or a weak one that is?
And seconding Tia, age is entirely irrelevant.
EDIT: Oh, and...