Forum:Handling FFVII Remake content

Forums: Index > Rin's Travel Agency > Archive > Handling FFVII Remake content

		06:48, March 23, 2020 (UTC) Technobliterator Talk
		Though we've had remakes of games before, Final Fantasy VII Remake is unique how different it is from the original game. I'm making this forum to discuss my ideas for how to handle differences in story and gameplay content. tl;dr Story content does not need to be split into separate pages, though {{note}} and {{cite}} can be used to mark differences. This way, we can cite VII Remake (and specifically cite the quest/chapter) if a story section we're describing only occurs in VII Remake, and use note to make notes of any differences. Gameplay content should be given separate pages, including making new location pages for radically different ones, and separating /Gameplay pages for characters. I'm currently leaning towards "/Gameplay (VII Remake)" and "/Gameplay (Final Fantasy VII)", but I'm open to changing my mind. For story content, I propose we do not separate content to separate pages. Other than causing organizational nightmares for us -- which in turn is a bad user experience for readers that will not know how to find what they're looking for -- this practice from other wikis effectively amounts to writing the same page twice. This is not really convenient for anyone, and becomes especially problematic given we now know that events from the rest of the Compilation are being referenced in the Remake. We also know that VII Remake introduces a ton of story additions, and cases where the original story is altered. I propose we make use of {{note}} and {{cite}} to point out these differences, like so: Aerith gives Cloud a flower in Sector 8. After that, she is attacked by the Watchmen of Fate. Notes Template:Notelist Citations Here, we make notes of the events that occurred in the original game, while using the most up-to-date canon as the default. For events that occur only in one release, namely, the most up-to-date release, we cite the game they came from to say "this occurs in the VII Remake at this point". This also clears up any ambiguity for someone who has only played the original and not the Remake. The same logic can be extended for other releases, such as the FFXII manga; if something occurs in the manga but not the game, the manga can be cited to say when it happens. The goal of this is to be less awkward than simply writing "In Final Fantasy VII, ... but in Final Fantasy VII Remake, ..." while putting across the same point. Though I'm open to other suggestions on this, this would be how I'd do it. For gameplay content, I propose that all gameplay pages for the original game have a different VII Remake page. For the most part, we already do this (different pages for enemies, weapons, abilities, etc.), but it becomes trickier for more lore-heavy pages like locations and characters. With locations, most of the content can be placed on the quest pages, such as those in Category:Chapters in Final Fantasy VII and Category:Quests in Final Fantasy VII Remake. However, for locations that are radically different, separate tagged pages, such as "Honey Bee Inn (Final Fantasy VII)" and "Honey Bee Inn (VII Remake)", are better (assuming they turn out as differently as it appears). Although the main difference will be gameplay content, and geography/lore may be very similar, there will be differences when it comes to development/behind the scenes content. I feel it's better to just bite the bullet on these ones specifically rather than cram content into overly large pages. With characters, /Gameplay pages should be split by game, to pages such as "/Gameplay (Final Fantasy VII)" or "/Gameplay (VII Remake)". This is because a /Gameplay page on a character is specifically supposed to serve a reader looking for gameplay information from that game, so making them scroll through a game that they don't need information for is bad user experience. With that said, I'm really open to suggestions on the names, because I'm not happy with that name either. If it were me -- and I say this as the person who proposed splitting character information to subpages to begin with -- I'd ditch the subpage naming content altogether, in favor of just "Tifa Lockhart gameplay", "Cloud Strife other appearances", and even go with "Sephiroth (Dissidia)" for simplification, but even then we'd just end up with "Tifa Lockhart gameplay (VII Remake)", which is still a fairly awkward page title. Please leave any thoughts here.

For minor differences I guess I don't mind note, but for considerable additions/removals/changes I think we need to be saying "In FFVII"/"In FFVIIR", like for the Watchmen of Fate. I'd like if we could split the story by game, but because the Compilation is technically canon to both it makes it pretty difficult. People trying to grasp the story of the original will probably want the story to be explained to them without being told Shinra did it, Sephiroth tormented, and shadows attacked.

I'd like to see us ditch these gameplay character subpages. When a character appears as a boss we just make a "[boss name] (boss)" page. We should do the same for party members/playable characters. These pages would basically be the same as job pages. "Cloud (VII Remake party member)" should be good enough.

Similarly, I'd like to see us always split gameplay from Location pages if they appear in two games. The new page would include a list of locations (with unique names) and gameplay interactable things, maps and layouts of the areas, and lists of everything, NPCs, etc.. I think it's really important we have a list of locations and their names specific for each game because it's immensely useful for telling users where things are located. Esthar has a ton of places called "Esthar- City", but it'd be great to refer to a specific screen as "Y-Junction (East)" and have an article to tell the reader what that means.

Although Honey Bee Inn is also a special case where the two locations are nothing alike other than their small place in the story. I think the main Honey Bee Inn article can still hold most of the non-gameplay info though. JBed (talk) 14:01, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

The only problem with that is that it could read awkwardly, and take one of the experience in a way to read "In FFVII"/"In FFVIIR". Like you said, because the Compilation is canon to both, splitting the content is not really an option.

I'd agree with ditching the /gameplay subpages in favor of pages for party members, and I actually thought about adopting the "boss page" name idea. The big problem I have with it now is that "party member" is too ambiguous a tag name, and misidentifies the scope of the article. "Cloud (Final Fantasy VII party member)" could imply that the article is about all aspects of Cloud, including story and development info, when it's only about gameplay. My big concern is readers seeing "Cloud Strife" and "Cloud Strife (VII Remake party member)" and not knowing where to go to find what they need. Though I still think the structure is what we should aim for, a better tag would be needed, probably.

On splitting gameplay for locations, it depends how much content there will be after the quest pages for all games exist. I'm not really sure how I'd go about splitting them, but I'm not against the idea.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 15:47, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

I'm kind of feeling having something like a "History" section for the general timeline of events, and then separate sections for every title that tells the story as it is told--with these sections being able to make reference to things like optional scenes (Edit: Although I guess some remakes and adaptations do remain almost identical. gdi. well the Remake is giving us only a fraction of the original VII so it won't look so repetitive at this point).

I think "party member" is clear enough. I get where you're coming from, but you could equally imagine "Necron (boss)" used "boss" as a clarifying tag and was just for Necron as a whole. We wouldn't be using a tag as specific as "party member" tag of all things if we didn't have to! The intro and infobox will make it clear, and if not we can always add a notice. In TRPGs we have the word "unit".

The good thing about Quest pages is they offer a linear perspective. But if someone's got the key to Sector 5 and is returning to Midgar, they'll want to know about the items they missed in the guest room in Aeris's house. Many places on the wiki we refer to sub-locats/zones, and so we need a game-specific place to list those zones. We currently have a map on Mako Reactor 1 that only makes sense in regards to FFVII--VIIRemake will have different layout and maps. Shinra Manor's (at least) three iterations are incompatible. JBed (talk) 18:19, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

Regarding characters: I'm really inclined to agree. I'm still just anxious that the name could be confusing to those unfamiliar with our page naming structure or with the term "party member". If I was a newbie getting into the game, I'd probably be confused also.

But if we assume that article titles work with the structure "<primary thing> (<added context>)", then I wonder if we can't just do Cloud (Final Fantasy VII gameplay). "Cloud gameplay (Final Fantasy VII)". Admittedly, it's a little awkward next to boss battles, but I can't think of a less clumsy title that doesn't have the same ambiguity issue.

Agreed mostly on the rest... "Story" to "History" wouldn't be a bad idea, just not sure how to then fit the events per game in a way that avoids repetition or etc.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 19:50, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

My reasons against "gameplay" is that "gameplay" entails more than just being a party member, and I don't think that being a boss in a game is that related to being a party member in that game (besides sometimes using the name variable). The reason we need these extra pages is because of all the related details associated with being a party member we need to cover. Being able to just type [[Cloud (Final Fantasy VII party member)|]] really makes a lot of sense to me. If we call these pages "gameplay" then we'll probably feel the need to include a h2 for the boss fight. So what for Dagger? I would think the page would be named "Dagger gameplay", but then do we cover the boss battle called Garnet? JBed (talk) 20:55, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of. In that case, I lean towards "Cloud (Final Fantasy VII party member)" and we'd just have to eat the fact that we'd need to put {{for}} at the top.

I think we should also make a separate infobox like "infobox party member", which contains a link for "Character information". I don't know if you have any ideas on that.

I think the user experience wouldn't be great, but I can't really think of a better name that's less ambiguous and achieves the intended goal.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 21:08, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

Writing the context in the story etc sections ("In Final Fantasy VII he bla bla, but in the Remake he instead...") seems unavoidable sometimes and less confusing than notes. It's not pretty, but not that disruptive to a reading experience as people will glance over that particular wording.
We could keep the story sections quite summarized, and then in "Behind the scenes" add some "Story differences between versions" sections, and explain more at length there if some major differences would benefit from being elaborated upon further (although it could encourage newbie editors to add these to everything for irrelevant stuff, like in the original Aerith's umbrella was purple but now it's red...)
It's good to have a plan going forward, but we won't know precisely how it will look like before we actually start to do it.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:38, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

I've made an example party member page. Similar to existing Gameplay, but with added infobox. Wasn't sure about including {{for}}, but can do. Any comments on this before I do it for the other FFVII pages? I think we can focus on VII while Remake is still out, and slowly creep it in for other games.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 19:43, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Do the full weapon list and Limit Break list still need to be behind {{See|}} if Tifa has her own dedicated party member page now? I think they could fit there.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 20:18, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

The article should be probably state what the character comes equipped with. I'm not sure about the "Battle" h2. I think most of its contents can just be h2s. There are some games where you can lose HP and contract statuses outside of battle, there are some abilities used outside of battle, etc.. But most of the Battle h2's contents is what defines what a party memberi s anyway. JBed (talk) 20:24, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

A section for relevant scenes might be useful. You already have "as a party leader", but both the Premium Heart (the bonus scene) and Final Heaven require her in the party. Also parts of the game they have to be in the party (although for Tifa that's just fixed-party moments). JBed (talk) 20:28, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure about including the full weapon list and Limit Break list on the party member pages if we can link to an existing page. Seems redundant, and I don't think relying on modules to transclude data like we've done for other games is the best solution. It's not a bad idea though. Worth trying.

Agreed that it should include starting equipment (the "Equipment" section is best for that), and that "Battle" isn't a great h2 name. Moving the h3s to standard h2s makes sense, but it still seems logical to group that info together. Would either need a better h2 name, or to just ditch the h2 entirely.

Relevant scenes/interactions is definitely not a bad idea, I'm just not sure what I'd name the section. It could probably be grouped with the date mechanics scene.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:55, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

UPDATE: I've now included the information has mentioned above, and organized it into a coherent layout. Couldn't think of a better name other than "Battle", but that's for the characters' stats in combat, more or less. "Quests" comprises times when the character joins/leaves the party, or when they're actually the party leader. "Interactions" covers unique scenes where the character is a member, as well as date mechanics. I can't think of how including full weapons/limit info would fit without straight up duplicating content, so for now the links will stay.

I think this layout and setup can be used for other games too, but VII Remake when it launches will take up most of my time, so I'll only implement it for FFVII characters for now. Let me know if there are any comments, otherwise I'll just make the pages for the rest of these tomorrow.

Partly related, but should there be pages for the characters' Limit abilities, or at least for their final Limits so we can include info on how to get the item?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 08:12, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

I think every character's final Limit has a parent page (Cosmo Memory (ability) etc) that should have all info about them, besides maybe Cait Sith, though his ToyBox surely is among the most complex... So they are at least "discoverable" via google pretty well. But the Limit page is really big! In later games everyone has a different Limit Break command (Renzokuken/Dyne/Swordplay) so it's easy to make a separate page for everyone.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 02:52, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Guys, I know we're still scrambling and this is only going to throw gas on the fire, but I propose when there are significant differences to something within a page that we use sections. I checked the Mako Reactor 1 page and it's a pain to parse. If we separate it with h2 headings for each game, and keep everything organized under those headings, that will do a lot to reduce confusion, AND will make it easier for people to get to what they want with the navigation. I also propose that for minor differences, it can just be handled as an inline thing, but where there are major story additions or changes, those should really go under subheadings for each game, too. The goal of this should be to keep what's mostly the same in one spot to avoid doubling our work, while also separating things out clearly when the deviations are too much to note. Using the headings is an easy indicator for the casual observer when there are significant changes, and for the merged sections, it should be clear enough that it's talking about both without being explicit. Unrelated, do we need to throw templates together real quick? I see we're still using static tables on the enemy pages so far. Let me whip something up! It's been a while! :) Bluestarultor ^BSA 02:23, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

UPDATE: Ta-da~! https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Template:VII_Remake_Enemy_Stats Dang that felt good! XD Bluestarultor ^BSA 06:22, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

This forum was made back before I knew the extent of the differences for the Remake, since it was as-yet unreleased.

For Story: agreed completely separate sections for story content is ideal, though I'm not convinced of making them a different h2. A lot of the events in the Remake before the Mako Reactor 1 bombing are still canon to both games, and a lot of the detail added by VII Remake does not contradict the original. However, right around when FFVII starts, is when events do contradict the original, and there is divergence. Therefore, I'd just separate events into "Before Mako Reactor 1 Bombing", and "Original continuity", and "Remake continuity", since REDACTED SPOILER(the different Remake continuity still technically occurs after the original continuity), this should be the best way to organize it.

For Geography, one section is ideal, and VII Remake can take precedence, given that canonically the VII Remake locations is how they actually are without all the hardware limitations or extra expansion and etc. It can have a paragraph at most to explain differences in layout between games. This is my thinking right now. I will demo this at some point, but I'm going through quest pages right now, followed by ability/weapon pages, and then locations and all lore are the last thing I'll get to. So someone else is free to come up with something in the meantime.

Likewise, for enemy pages: thanks for providing the enemy infobox! I was going to make one based on what we have from the in-game Battle Intel (we use the style at Template:Infobox enemy stats FFVII btw though this style is fine for this game and a bot can rename anyway), but I'm busy on quest pages, and enemy pages are really low priority for me. If someone wants to get to them before I do, that's fine. The only enemy pages we have were written when the demo was out, and there wasn't a lot of info.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 07:06, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a need for the character stat info? I was able to isolate those images as well. I know the quality isn't great at full size (PS4 Share to Twitter is not a gentle process), but I was able to get everything a consistent size (66x66 px) and if you need the stats added to the template, I can do that easily now that I'm back in the swing of it. Bluestarultor ^BSA 08:11, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

Sure, that'd be useful. The Category:Party member gameplay in Final Fantasy VII Remake pages are where that info goes, and are on the list to fill out once I finish the quest pages-- but you're more than welcome to add to them before I get there. Also, if you can provide screenshots (thanks for the element icons btw, I remember when writing that page I really wish I had them!), images and content for a Menu (VII Remake) page would be great. We encourage a standardized file naming scheme (i.e. "Tifa bartending from FFVII Remake.png"), but it's not enforced yet, and eventually all images will be renamed with the bot anyway.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 08:23, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

I'll keep it in mind for future uploads. Everything I added so far uses a consistent naming scheme, which should make converting easier. I think I, in my tiredness, didn't say what I actually meant. I don't have stat info; just icons, but I uploaded them and added them to the enemy stats template. I also see there's a new HTML-based template format, but the conversion tool leaves much to be desired and TBH, I really don't want to dive into learning a whole new format to migrate it after spending so much time getting it to look nice the old way, first thing doing a serious edit after ages. I'll let someone with more expertise do the conversion, no offense. I really miss the days when I would've been on top of something like that and helping innovate, TBH. For now, what I really am most concerned with it that nobody takes exception to the parameters. If you could check them and make sure they fit within current standards, and make any necessary changes, that, I think, would at least ensure I contributed something meaningful. I'm unfortunately nowhere in the game yet and still need to get out of Reactor 1. I took the week off specifically to play it and want to get to doing that, but once I get Assess, I can at least fill in some elemental info. :) Bluestarultor ^BSA 16:55, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

No worries! The parameters look good. I just brought the names in-line with other templates and renamed to Template:Infobox enemy stats FFVIIR, and I think this is good for now.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:03, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I went in to link the stat names to their pages and while I was looking to see what the parameter names changed to, I noticed "silence" was used for both the status and what I took to be the damage result of silence attacks (similar to Sleep in the original for Palmer). Are these values actually linked? Or was I just way off in what that was for? Or is it smart enough to know to pull the values in order? Let me know. If needed, I'll peek at what we did for the naming in the original game template and copy it. Bluestarultor ^BSA 20:39, April 13, 2020 (UTC)

Post-release, CONTAINS SPOILERS

Now the game's come out, are we still set on merging the VII and VII Remake sections? I have my own thoughts about what's going on, but what exactly they're doing with Remake is very much unknown, and I think that's precisely why we can't merge the stories together.

Barret's page currently talk about all the Whisper and dimension stuff, how Aerith says Sephiroth is the true enemy of the planet, and then how in Kalm Cloud explains the plot.

This isn't useful to FFVII players or Remake players. They did say they plan to follow most of the plot of VII's story, but the events of VII in Shinra Building are vastly different. And also I think it's obvious that the purpose of the whispers is to keep the plot of Remake on track with the plot of the original--and the writers knew the players of the original would notice this--so no longer having the plot of the original on the page loses out that context. And finally, the resolution of that whole meta-narrative is that they won't be bound by the original from hereon.

Also Biggs is fucking alive. JBed (talk) 21:41, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Not gonna indent the below content because it's a new post, but I'm responding to the above all the same.

tl;dr No, we're not merging the VII and VIIR sections anymore. I just didn't make a post about it yet a) because I wanted to a start a forum on changing Story section structures entirely, and b) because I'm still on gameplay content and all lore content will be rewritten anyway (by me). We can probably start the discussion now though, so editors who want to add stuff in the meantime can.

Frankly, I'm extremely pleased that the events are so different, from the perspective of the wiki, because it makes our lives a lot easier than I thought it would. Essentially, the Remake's events are a separate continuity, but we don't know where they place. So to me, the key point is to write Remake content in a way that it is separate from the original timeline, and when more is revealed, it can be slotted in wherever it's relevant.

To illustrate why this is important:

1. One theory going around (that I believe) is that Remake actually takes place immediately after the original game. The evidence supporting this theory is mostly that FFVII OG's final shot is of Aerith opening her eyes and looking at the lifestream, much like the starting shot of FFVII Remake. This theory basically suggests that FFVII's events were just a vision by the Planet, which used the Whispers to make sure that vision unfolds in order to destroy Sephiroth and destroy humanity, but now Aerith and Cloud rejected that. So in other words, the end of the Remake saga leads into Advent Children and subsequent releases, in the order FFVII OG -> FFVII Remake -> AC -> DoC.
2. Another theory suggests that the Remake takes place in a totally different timeline. More straightforward, but in this case, the events taking place after FFVII OG are erased from this continuity. We'd still cover both continuities under the Story (or History pending future forum) section.
3. All events prior to the Bombing of Mako Reactor 1 are canon to both games. Nojima has confirmed as such, and the Remake contains multiple references to this.

Since we don't know which theory is true, we need to make sure that wherever we write Remake story content now, we can slot it into its appropriate place in the timeline later.

So, I propose as an interim solution:

==Story==
===Pre-Mako Reactor 1 Bombing===
-Before Crisis, Crisis Core...
===Original continuity===
-FFVII OG, Advent Children, DoC...
===Remake continuity===
-FFVII Remake...

This is probably the most logical way to handle this. We can probably come up with better names for the sections, but the Mako Reactor 1 Bombing is where the divergence seems to take place until we get a better name for "Aerith looks at lifestream then walks out onto Sector 8 streets".

These are my thoughts so far...-- Technobliterator ^T_C 21:56, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. I wonder if a "Before Final Fantasy VII" would suffice. I think SE also consider the events of FFVII to be the "Crisis", although that's probably not understood enough that "Pre-Crisis" would work. JBed (talk) 22:15, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

"Before Final Fantasy VII" is probably a better name, so I agree that we can go with that.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 22:27, April 30, 2020 (UTC)

Made the Cloud Strife story section like this format.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 20:30, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

Was just about to say it looks good. Great job!-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:34, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

EDIT: Only thing I'd change is that I'd keep the h4s from before. So I'd keep things like "Pursuit of Sephiroth" etc. headers below them, but they'd be ====level 4 headers==== underneath the big three. Other than that, looks really good.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:36, May 4, 2020 (UTC)

Location page structure

With the location pages, while there are some areas of the game that follow the layout of the original exactly (the Mako Reactor 1 was an example where we got lucky), there are others that change this layout, like Wall Market, but keep important landmarks in place. Conversely, there are some locations that are greatly expanded compared to the original, like Sector 6, where the Collapsed Expressway that was basically the whole chunk of an area in the original is now only a small part of it. So there will be lots of pages that will need splitting (Sector 7 can probably be split into Sector 7 Slums and Upper Sector 7, for instance).

Canonically, it is reasonable to assume the geographical layout of these locations is just the VII Remake layouts, and we can put FFVII OG's layout differences down to just hardware limitations. So the Geography section should just cover the Remake area. That said, a separate Layout section will be needed to describe the different level layout, i.e. describing a layout from the perspective of the player, with gameplay details about the location and minimal lore information.

So I propose the following:

• Split the larger sectors into their different areas, so Sector 7 Slums, Upper Sector 7.
• Create separate gameplay pages for the ones that have gameplay info in both, existing at Sector 7 Slums gameplay (Final Fantasy VII) and Sector 7 Slums gameplay (VII Remake). These would include the usual "Quests", "Encounters", "Items", etc., but also a "Layout" section above them.
• "Layout" exists to provide a non-canonical overview of the layout from player perspective. This doesn't have to describe the area as a lived-in world as the Geography sections should, but instead just describes how to get from point A to B and points out notable items or etc. for relevant gameplay info.
• Gameplay sections on old location pages solely link to these new pages, and to quests that appear. This way, the location pages get readers to where they need to go for gameplay info, while serving their primary purpose: to provide lore information about the place.

I can create a mockup of this, if this sounds good.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 19:53, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

Agree with splitting Sectors by Slums v. Plate.

As usual, I disagree with "Sector 7 Slums gameplay" styling. I would opt for "Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake [map/area/field])". I think using different terminology for lore v. gameplay will make things easier in the long run (Japanese makes things easy for themselves by using English loanwords for technical things). Meanwhile the lore term for a location can be "place" (although more often we'll use words like "town" and "cave").

Also I want to say we shouldn't worry about having every lore page have an equal gameplay page. E.g. if having Macalania Woods and Lake Macalania makes sense to be together for lore, but separate for gameplay, then we should just do that. "Macalania" can be a lore page, "Macalania Woods" and "Lake Macalania" can redirect to it, "[Macalania Woods/Lake Macalania] [tag]" can be gameplay pages.

Also also, I thing we should be vague enough in our descriptions on lore pages that our descriptions should make sense to both. Unless we're dealing with significant overhauls (like Shinra Mansion) in which case we should have paragraphs beginning e.g. "In FFVII" in the Geography section.

Yes to everything else. I'm planning to write overly in-depth VII gameplay location pages but I'm working on making maps first. If you want to start the pages up be my guest though. JBed (talk) 20:26, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

Yup I'm 100% okay with "Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake [map/area/field])" provided whichever we choose has clarity. "Sector 7 Slums gameplay" was just the first thing I thought of.

Agreed that not every lore page needs an equal gameplay page, and with the Macalania example. Further to this, in FFVII's case, "Seventh Heaven" probably doesn't need gameplay pages just because there's not as much info.

I was going to work on VII Remake gameplay locations (after my finals are done on Wednesday..), so I'm good with you starting up on VII OG's locations first!-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:38, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

No, you first, I insist. I could get something of a start presentable in a week, but I'm unlikely to begin anytime soon.

Sector 7 is a good reverse example, and one I was thinking about since I'll probably start with Sector 7 Slums.

Regarding the name. "Field" is a technical term and common Japanese term, which has made its way into English too-- Field Music Sequence being one instance (we use it in techincal cases like Field item and Jump (field action)). I could see how one could conflate "Map" with on-screen maps and the world map, but "Maps" has been used in guides long before on-screen maps. And "Area" is less technical and commonly used-- but it's a word that still would make sense from a geographic perspective so I see why it might not be desirable. I think I'm leaning "field". JBed (talk) 22:40, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

What about "Sector 7 Slums (Final Fantasy VII town)"/ "Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake dungeon)", and "Mythril Mine (Final Fantasy VII dungeon)"/"Mythril Mine (VII Remake dungeon)"? In cases where it's ambiguous (like Shinra Building), "field" can be used. Better to go with more recognized gameplay terms when we can..-- Technobliterator ^T_C 00:48, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

B-b-but... Field Music Sequence! Town and Dungeon is a distinction players make, and in the early games pretty easy to define, but it's not a distinction most of the games or their guides make. Sector 7 Slums, for example, is a town. But if the Support Tower is being covered on the same page then it's also a dungeon. Shinra Building is totally a dungeon, despite how untypical it may seem. Sector 5 Slums has several encounter-free areas separated by areas with encounters. Doesn't seem reasonable to base the tags on categories the games themselves barely acknowledge. The other reason I hesitate is because "town" is a lore term and a gameplay term, so something like Costa del Sol (Final Fantasy VII) existing alongside "Costa del Sol (Final Fantasy VII town)" doesn't look right to me. JBed (talk) 04:14, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense. "Field" probably works, then, just figured we could use something a bit easier to recognize.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 04:20, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

I think they rearranged the floors for the Shinra HQ so that's another annoying thing, as before it was easy to just divide the building layout by floor. FFVII and Crisis Core should have the same floors, and Remake has a new floors layout. There's no gym, boo, was so ready to run on the treadmill...Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 19:54, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

Yup. I remember thinking while playing the Shinra Building "oh boy, now this'll be a bitch to sort through...", and it and Wall Market are what convinced me that we need Layout separate from canonical Geography. I'll have to figure something out when I rewrite that page in a way where, as suggested above, I can be vague enough in descriptions that they can apply to both, up to the point where I have to distinguish between Crisis Core/FFVII OG and Remake.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 20:10, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

Does this example for Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake field) work? Not filled in Encounters, Treasures, or Shops yet (encounters and treasures should just be a table for enemies and where, but I'm not sure we should even include it if it's listed on quest pages anyway; shops would be the same as they're always done), but I've done the Layout section and it's from a purely gameplay perspective. Let me know if it's overly detailed/is missing anything. I know it could benefit from map images, but I don't know how to rip those from the game (or if the ultimania just has the maps anyway). Also, the Quests section could maybe have a paragraph or two outlining them briefly, unless that would be overkill?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 00:58, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Oh -- and any ideas on if the gameplay page should have Musical themes or the lore page (or both??), and how to categorize the new pages ("Location gameplay in Final Fantasy VII Remake")?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 00:59, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Music is part of the gameplay in terms of what plays in what areas and during what events. Such a section on lore pages would only need to list the themes specifically associated with the area. If we want to analyse how the arrangement suits the area, that would go on lore pages.

Ultimania maps are heavily annotated and point out quests, shops, items, Shinra boxes (and their contents%), other stuff, and what groups of enemies spawn in which areas at what levels. They're associated with chapters, so I assume if the same location appears in multiple chapters it will have an alternatively annotated map elsewhere. JBed (talk) 01:37, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like the ultimania maps aren't useful, which is a shame. We'll have to rip maps from the game.

I've created Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake field) (work in progress), split Sector 7 to Sector 7 Slums, and also moved gameplay details from there to Sector 7 Slums (Final Fantasy VII field) (feel free to completely rewrite/do what you like with the latter). Going to expand the first one more thoroughly, and then Sector 7 Slums I'll expand when I get to lore rewrites. While organizing it, I was pleasantly surprised just how similar VII Remake's layout is to the original -- so I think writing Geography in a vague enough way to apply to both (aside from rare occasions where you can't do that, like how Stargazer Heights exists only in VIIR) should definitely be possible.

I also made Category:Field gameplay in Final Fantasy VII Remake, and for now have created a Template:Navbox gameplay FFVIIR to include the field pages and party member pages. Now we could use the navbox as an all-encompassing "technical gameplay details" navbox, to list stuff like gameplay mechanics, the battle system page, etc., if we want to go that route, or limit it to just party members/fields. I only made it for now because the page is lacking a navbox.

Please let me know if you have any other comments before I proceed with making the other field pages for VIIR... I'll also probably make FFVII OG's field pages while splitting gameplay content, but I won't be expanding those.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 15:43, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

Also -- any thoughts on how redirects to sub-areas should work? i.e. Redirecting "Scrap Boulevard" to Sector 7 Slums#Scrap Boulevard or Sector 7 Slums (VII Remake field)#Scrap Boulevard (and categorizing with "Field gameplay in FFVII Remake"? I imagine the second one makes more sense.-- Technobliterator ^T_C 15:49, May 28, 2020 (UTC)

What should we do for gameplay pages if there's no equivalent lore page? i.e. "Sector 7 - Collapsed Plate Area" map in FFVIIR, there's really not enough info for a lore page separate from just Sector 7. Should the gameplay page still be "Sector 7 Collapsed Plate Area", or "Sector 7 Collapsed Plate Area (field)"?-- Technobliterator ^T_C 01:58, June 12, 2020 (UTC)

I would call it "Sector 7 Collapsed Plate Area" without the tag.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 20:15, June 12, 2020 (UTC)