Forum:Defining Fandom Notability

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Guideline Discussion

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 04:06, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
		Category:Fandom has caught my eye. Project:Scope only makes vague reference to "third-tier" notable non-canon products and how to cov r t em , b ut not what defines notability. I would like to suggest we hammer out some notability guidelines for future fan products and vape what does not fit them. Some guidelines I wou ld suggest are: BU BUUUUUUUHUUUUHHUHEGHEHEHEEHEHHEHEHEHH bubhuuuhehehehehehehehehHUHUHUHUHUHH The subject has received re cognition from Square-Enix (Dion Rogers' Rinoa) The subject has received recognition from third-party websites or companies (likely our widest guideline - wou ld cover Dead Fantasy, FF7 for Famicom, 8-Bit Theater, Spoony, etc) The subject was produced by a signif icant third-party (Final Fantasy Retrospective) (EDIT - this restriction has been axed due to concerns over defining what makes a third party significant) This would also require searching for e vidence that articles can meet these guidelines, which is only helpful because if a fan product is deemed notable, we ought to cover why - 8-Bit Theater has won awards, Dion Rogers' won a SE contest, etc).

		Catuse says at 05:26, April 24, 2013 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		Yes, yes, and possibly yes? How do we define "significant"? Does it have to be a company? Does it have to have a certain Alexa ranki ng? Does it need Or do we just decide on a case-by-case basis, which allows things like Final Fantasy: Endless Nova to get in?

It is hard to define what is a notable third party. If something got like millions and millions of views in YouTube without being recognised by a third party, I'd say that could still be notable enough to cover. It's always a bit of a case by case thing.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 14:00, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like the official Final Fantasy Superfan contest to have an article and to cover the winner. I don't really care to make it myself though...well, maybe I will make it myself one day!Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 14:02, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

		Xepscern - It's Morphin Time!! TALK - 17:44, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
		I feel I must argue that we seem to be too lose with our fan pages. Like, Dead Fantasy. Okay, it's popular (I guess? I never have seen it, and only heard about it on the wikia). But it isn't officially recognized by SE. It'd be like if we had a page for Shards of Memory. Or Cloud Mows the Lawn. And with stuff like Spoony... why? He's an online reviewer who, yes, is well-known, but who has no impact on the series. Why have a page for him at all?

		Kaimi - "No matter how dark the night, morning always comes. And our journey begins anew." TALK - 18:05, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
		As per Drake's propositions:BUUUUUUHHGHRHEHEHEEEHEEHEEHHEHEH Square Enix recognition is a good thing to consider. "Recognition from third-party websites or companies"...I'm a bit mixed up with it. Yeah, websites or companies may mention some fanmade stuff, but I don't really think there will be a lot of notable stuff. "The subject was produced by a significant third-party": the "Final Fantasy Retrospective" seems to be a decent idea to have its own article, but there are YouTube videos that concentrate on the series' specific things, like summons, weapons, abilities, and such, and so I'm mixed up here as well. And yes, Keltie, the Final Fantasy Superfan contest definitely needs its own page. Now, I'll sound kinda 'arrogant' (can't find a better word to describe it), but there's always the Final Fantasy Fandom Wiki which I run and if someone would like to post a fanmade material as s/he thinks it's note-worthy, s/he could do it there. Is there an article you think is of an exceptional quality? Vote for it here!

		Tia-Lewise - Tread lightly, she is near, under the snow. Speak gently, she can hear the daisies grow TALK - Summoner of Nyan 20:19, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
		In my opinion, fanmade material should really be either recognised by Square or have some significance to us as a Wiki if we're to have it in our mainspace. Otherwise, keep it in userspace, or Kaimi's fandom wiki, and maybe affiliate with it? That way at least people know where to go for the appropriate posting.

		Sorceror Nobody – The supreme nonentity Talk · Flan's Elbow Colosseum · MSPA Wiki · 20:28, April 27, 2013 (UTC) "I can detect matter down to one atom in a vacuum the size of the moon, and apparently, this guy doesn't exist" -- Foaly
		Ok so let's see... 8-Bit Theater should be safe, yes? OC ReMix surely cannot fail to be safe. While Kate Covington could be merged into the OCR page, I don't believe she should be. Keep. Endless Nova... haha. Yeah, I'm considerably kinder to this game than most, but I agree that it so is not notable. Dead Fantasy I think should stay, but I wouldn't go out of my way to defend it if a majority agree it should go. Spoony... if we have him, surely we should have other reviewers as well? Is Yahtzee notable? Is the Nostalgia Critic? That's all the ones I know off the top of my head without looking at the category.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 20:31, April 27, 2013 (UTC)
		It has been brought up that both the second and third points have the problem of defining what is a notable-enough third party. Well, it may not be reached with a known process, but I'll direct everyone to this link, which notes the websites and magazines says are good enough to be on their VG reviews template. These are, among others: GameSpot, IGN, GameSpy, 1UP, Eurogamer, VideoGamer, GameInformer, Edge, Nintendo Power, Playstation Magazine, XBox Magazine, PC World, and Famitsu. The list seems good to me, all are recognized and known publications, and if they're reliable enough for Wikipedia with their much tighter standards, I don't see why the list isn't good enough for us.

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 20:07, May 3, 2013 (UTC)
		Alright, this has been dead for a week and I want resolution. So to get this out there, I suggest that all three guidelines be implimented: The subject has received recognition from Square-Enix (Dion Rogers' Rinoa) The subject has received recognition from third-party websites or companies (likely our widest guideline - would cover Dead Fantasy, FF7 for Famicom, 8-Bit Theater, Spoony, etc) The subject was produced by a significant third-party (Final Fantasy Retrospective) And for notable/significant third-party websites, we uses this list as a starting point and discussing adding or removing entries on the list once we've agreed that these three guidelines using such a defined list are acceptable. (For instance we can add Siliconera). Everyone good with this?

I agree with the first guideline entirely, and won't bother commenting on the axed third guideline. The second... I'm not wholly against it, nor for. My concern is - like you stated - its our widest guideline, and we'll be putting in a lot of content that isn't strictly... hmm, how do I put this? I know what Siliconera is and read it myself, but is it worth a page on the FFwiki for its occasional posts with FF content? And what would the article say, other than pointing the user to the website, or lifting its content? If we can make it work, then fine, let's do it, but I think it'd require qu

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHUUUUHHEHEHEHEHEHite a bit of policing. - Paramina (talk) 20:19, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is I'm skeptical of any fandom content on the wiki, tbh, unless it's been recognised by Square or is something like 8bit Theatre. - Paramina (talk) 20:27, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

I just remembered this- Bulbapedia have a Project Fandom area of their wiki- http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bulbapedia:Project_Fandom - I don't know if we'd like to dedicate any time to something like this, but I'm just throwing it out there as a possible suggestion if we want to be rather loose as to what we cover. Tia-Lewise 18:57, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

A possibility, but then the Project would still need guidelines to go by. Drake Clawfang (talk) 19:04, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like what we're doing already, just given a name. Our project fandom is Project {{fanmade}}. Unless I'm missing something, what changes would there be? JBed (talk) 19:08, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose we'd just cover more, and in more detail, and lump it together in a collapsible like we do with general FF games. Tia-Lewise 19:24, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

All right, I'll just put myself down as agreeing with the outlines Drake's made. Jimcloud 21:43, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

		Catuse says at 21:49, May 9, 2013 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		I agree with using that list as a starting point, though we have a lot of trimming to do: pure reviewers with nothing beyond that can go, and so can sites that don't cover Square Enix games, such as Teamxbox and Amtix. Seeing as we don't use projectspace to create "hubs" anywhere else (no Project:Final Fantasy VI Coverage, for example) it seems kind of silly to do this just for fan projects. But if we do this around the wiki, it would be a pretty useful navigation tool to have, especially as Wikia Search gets less and less reliable <_<

Agree with the first and second parts of Drake's guidelines. As for the third, I honestly don't think something like Gametrailer's poorly researched retrospective deserves a page on the wiki any more than Endless Nova (of course, Endless Nova is one of those bizarre fixtures of the wiki that I'd sorta miss in a silly way). I think anything of real worth and merit can be covered in the first two categories: if a third party created something, we should only cover it if other third parties take note. Otherwise, we'd start covering anything Final Fantasy related that any large video game site spits out, which is something I'm assuming we don't want to do. ScatheMote 21:59, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Website Discussion

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 22:11, May 9, 2013 (UTC)
		So, working off this initial list, what additional websites do we define as significant third-parties, and what ones from the list can we ax for not meeting our needs for such a list (ie, they're review websites unlikely to offer news coverage of fan things).

		Catuse says at 00:15, May 16, 2013 (UTC) "Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton."
		Well, here's a very rushed and preliminary list. I put more work into axing useless magazines (about ~1980s gaming and Xbox mostly) than finding more sources (mostly we just cite Siliconera, Kotaku, Andriasang, and Square Enix themselves on the wiki anyways).

Final Verdict

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 21:34, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
		Okay this died but there was general consensus. So we can pass this into official policy, these are the proposed three guidelines for fandom notability and examples of current articles we cover that these guidelines would clear: The fan product has been recognized or acknowledged by Square-Enix (Dion Rogers' Rinoa, katecovington) The fan product has been recognized or acknowledged by notable third-party video game websites or magazines. (8-bit theater, the Spoony One, Dead Fantasy, NES/Famicom FF7) To list acceptable third parties for this guideline, as adapted from the above link's list - 1Up.com, Famitsu, IGN, GameSpot, Gametrailers, Siliconera, GameSpy, Electronic Gaming Monthly, Eurogamer, Game Informer, PC Gamer, Team XBox, Official Nintendo/Playstation/XBox Magazine(s), Nintendo Power The fan product was produced directly by one of the mentioned third-party video game websites or magazines. (GameTrailers FF Retrospective) Note the third guideline was disputed, but I list it here for the sake of accommodating all opinions. Please vote yay or nay on each of the three guidelines passing into policy. The current policy derived from discussion and voting is located at Project:Fandom, but voting is still ongoing.

Guideline 1

Yes

1. C A T U S E 21:37, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
2. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 23:02, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
3. ScatheMote 23:27, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
4. Jimcloud 15:28, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

No

Guideline 2

Yes

1. C A T U S E 21:37, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
2. --BlueHighwindツ 22:55, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
3. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 23:02, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
4. ScatheMote 23:27, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
5. Jimcloud 15:28, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
6. ShirubaKurono  21:35, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

No

Guideline 3

Yes

No

1. C A T U S E 21:37, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
2. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 23:02, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
3. ScatheMote 23:27, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Phase 2 - Housecleaning

		DrakeyC - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 00:13, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
		With the current state of policy, the following items are currently endangered. I will put up deletion notices so anyone who wants to save them can do so. Final Fan-tasy Real Final Fantasy A+ Final Fantasy and Philosophy: The Ultimate Walkthrough Final Fantasy Compendium Final Fantasy: Endless Nova Guarvail- Final Fantasy Heavy Metal Arrange Album Sega Fantasy VI The Final Fantasy Retrospective Vinyl Fantasy 7 Zodiac Brave