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Discussion

On this wiki everyone seems to feel that TacticAngel owns the DNC.

But since the DNC is in project space, its a feature of the wiki. And therefore the community "owns" it but TA runs it. And by running it the only control he should have is make sure everything runs smoothly, and is done in a timely fashion to the needs and wants of the community.

But the way the DNC is updated is not regularly, nor frequently. And I doubt this is how the community would like it to be run. There would be no problem if the DNC was TA's own arena in his userspace, but it isn't. It's the community's arena. Any arena you find in userspace works exactly the same, bar not being an admin (and a bit less FF-focused content in a few cases), however they are not in project space.

I have no problem with how TA runs the DNC in theory, other than his irregular and infrequent update. And I imagine the community share the same opinion. It just looks bad, and for the wiki community to have so little control over a project in project space is bad.

So there are resolves. TA takes better control of the DNC, and meets community expectations (I'm just assuming most people have the same opinion, if I do not then everything I say means nothing); compromise is made and other users are put in-charge of the DNC's handling (who handle it based on community); or the DNC is moved to TacticAngel's userspace (where he can take ownership and act as he likes).

Thoughts? 79.69.203.110 23:21, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

I think it needs removing from the main page. It looks a little amateurish and dominated by fanboys and its current spot could be filled with something more useful, like a link to the FFWiki Chat room (and I don't mean the IRC either). Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 23:28, December 24, 2011 (UTC)
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How about a random user arena? Of course Jeppo makes a good point that too many users only edit there, but c'est la vie. C A T U S E02:58, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

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You can't own something in project space. You can create it, and you can operate it, but you can't take full ownership. All the wiki has to do is to make TA realise this. Of course, if he still wants full ownership then we can just move it into his userspace, where he has the right to own it. There is nothing stopping the wiki then starting up a new community arena.

If he does comply and allow the DNC to become the wiki's project, then he can still continue to be the main person in-charge of operating the DNC. There would just be other users who can help out and keep to schedules when TA is unable to. And they would not be disciplined for doing so. 79.69.202.153 00:05, December 26, 2011 (UTC)


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I see the DNC as an outreach sort of thing and therefore I believe we should welcome IPs to vote and not force them to join. People can edit as IPs just as much as they as users, and the larger amount of people the DNC is available to the more people will come to join.

Although forcing people to join up gives them slightly more commitment and therefore they may be more likely to repeated vote and check out the rest of the wiki. It could go either way. We have no way of knowing. JBed 17:48, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

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Well since TA, though aware of the forum, has not commented, should we do something? 79.69.195.194 14:13, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

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TA's actual response was "oh, this again", and then suggested he'll make a comment sometime. This was a while ago, so I reminded him, and he's been on since, but when he came on he did nothing but ban someone.

But I felt a need to revive this topic since if we can't just wait and then do nothing when he doesn't make a response.

Also have you noticed how TA just started up a "Last Man Standing" thing that no one understands? I checked the nomination page and now I geddit. I don't like it. Clearly no one had any input into the LMS idea but TA himself.

Anyway, the difference between this discussion and other discussions is it isn't "the wiki against TA", it's "wiki ideals, and the DNC". Former discussions (IIRC) just had users saying they didn't like the way TA handled things. This topic aims to technically go "above his head" and overthrow him because the DNC, as a WikiProject, is not his but belongs to the wiki and its community. The wiki has all the authority to move DNC to his userspace, or to change his power over the DNC. We just never have.

We should discuss the things that the community would like and expect from a project arena. Then we can compile a list, and put it into action. TA's involvement in it will be up to him, however he won't be able to take control of it and any actions have to be in accordance to how the community wants things to be done, and not of his own accord. JBed 19:20, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

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I personally never had a problem with the old process of nominations. Enough support and it is added to the shortlist. Such a system would actually have to be monitored though. But we're likely to get problems with people always going for the same 50, or closer, characters. We could have a nominations each week where a topic is chosen, and people nominate fights involved in it... which will guarantee more diversity. So "Nominate FFII related fights", I don't know, maybe that's not such a good idea. JBed 22:46, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

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BlueHighwind TA

Huh, why are we petitioning to remove TA from management? I mean really, unless I missed something, as long as TA agrees to make the DNC a community thing there isn't a matter. TA would not enforce things as he wishes and they'd go through community first. He also wouldn't necesarilly have power above all-else. But I don't see why he can't be involved.

Really, the main problems with TA's solo-ownership is his tyranny (is that the word-- basically "what he wants happens") and his schedule or lack thereof. If there is a community involved (which can include TA) both problems are fixed. So why are we petitioning to remove TA, and not just change the management structure?

You also miss the point that he essentially owns the DNC, and should be able to stay in management of it if it were moved to his userspace. Then the wiki wouldn't have the DNC but we could put anything we wanted in its place. The DNC has been treated like it's his for all his time, we should at least give him the option to keep it his.

And I don't know what you expect to find from a petition. Or what you aim to achieve either. Nothing in project space is owned, all you need is an admin or two to either make the DNC community owned or to move it out of projectspace. We already know we have a consensus. 79.69.200.26 16:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

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Diablo does not need to be involved. Diablo would only need to be involved if TA started a backlash and absolutely refused to co-operate. TA should be presented two options, take the DNC to his own userspace, or allow other users to collaborate with its management, including himself if he wishes. IMO, no comment should cause the former. Others may disagree.

And Drake, what is your problem with TA anyway? Most people who voted in the second petition made it sound that TA being involved or not doesn't matter as long as there is a group. TA's involvement shouldn't even be discussed. The one thing that will happen after this discussion (despite how long it drags) is TA will lose the total part of his total power. Once that is gone TA is like any other user who would manage it. He would have to stick to community decision, and it wouldn't be possible for him to update to a bad schedule since there are other users who can stand in.

The DNC is the only thing TA does here. It's the only thing that links him with the wiki anymore. He's a semi-active SysOp. Why does the wiki feel it's a "TA and everyone else" sort of thing? His decision to continue participating in the management of the DNC should be up to him and him alone. If he were to choose to continue managing the DNC (with others) he wouldn't be able to step out of line so all your problems with him would no longer exist.

And you are correct in stating he has not commented. But some people don't tend to like to comment in places where it just seems everyone's against them. Any defense you give yourself will be attacked, any attack you give meet equal flame.

All you have to is go to his talk page and give him the ultimatum I presented, "host the DNC in your userspace, or allow the DNC to be managed as a community effort, including yourself if you choose. If you do not give an answer the DNC will be moved to your userspace and the wiki will start its own community arena." 79.69.200.26 19:17, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

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"and so far no one wants him to continue to be part of it."

Biased petitions are biased. That is not what's being said.

"to just seize control of the DNC would likely lead to an edit war between admins and one side would have to back down"

And what would be different if Diablo would be involved? All Diablo can do that other admins can't is steal SysOp rights. And do you really think it will have to lead to that? 79.69.200.26 19:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

"Relatively few people want the DNC moved to TA's userspace, and so far no one wants him to continue to be part of it."

I don't care what others want, it's common decency. The DNC has been TA's and it has been that way for a long time. If he were to want to continue managing arena he'd have to start from scratch, even if it's run in the exact same way as the DNC. While at the same time we're giving the DNC an overhaul and giving it a new image.

"We've had this discussion many times before, he has been standoffish and arrogant in the past, and these discussions have always died with nothing being done."

No, you've had backlashes in the past every time he does something you disagree with. The wiki has went and complained to TA. This entire discussion started not specifically because I disagree with the way TA handles the DNC (although it is definitely in the problem) but of how the DNC is being controlled. I'm not complaining to TA about the problems, I'm seeking the wiki to come to a communal decision about how a arena in projectspace should be handles.

"The same happened this time until you revived it."

It only happened because TA didn't respond and I was waiting on him to respond. I was disappointed. It wasn't just being left to die. 79.69.200.26 19:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

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Discussion post-TA's response

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Drake, TA used the exact words I would have used earlier. This forum has been about seeking new management, and then we had a discussion. Then you throw out a petition for the removal of TA. Few people actually care if TA is a part of it, it's just clear that him by himself isn't the best way to handle it. You have made it quite clear you don't want him.

I was going to make a response on TA's talk page, but I stopped writing half way. The fact of the matter of these petitions have just killed the point in this forum. Yeah, we're getting numbers (irrelevant numbers since TA's future involvement in the DNC does not matter to anyone but Drake). The wiki wants a community-managed arena. We know that. But how? What do we want changed? What do you expect to happen from these petitions?

I'm no longer interested in this forum or the DNC. Handle it how you like. 79.69.204.11 13:51, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Forgive my pessimism, I don't think anything will come of this petition either. How many times have we had a discussion, come to a decision on what we should do next, then do nothing? It is no wonder TA isn't overly concerned about this forum.
Oh, and Drake, please change your speech bubble colours. I can't read what you are writing. Jeppo (Talk | contribs) 14:59, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
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I have been discussing it with TA, and he is willing to let a committee run this thing, with or without his support. We are currently just ironing out a few minor details, but it should all be fine in the end. Diablocon 18:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

That's brilliant! Finally we've got some feedback from him. At least we know what to do with the whole thing now. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 19:04, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, TA would like to help oversee the transition. Basically he wants to just see who wants to join the committee and discuss the new schedule. I've asked him to pop in here so he can discuss it in person. Diablocon 19:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

It's about time. Mind you, he did say he reckoned he might get attacked by angry users with no real motives if he came to discuss it here. But it's nice to know that he's wanting to express himself. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 20:02, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 02:33, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
Because the DNC has a talk page, you may discuss the organizational changes you would like to see on the DNC talk page.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Wiki_talk:Dragon%27s_Neck_Colosseum#DNC_Future_Bureaucracy

Arbitrary bump

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Petitions

Group Volunteers

Sign here to informally express a desire to volunteer to become a member of the new group that would potentially take over overseeing the DNC.

  1. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 18:17, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
  2. ScatheMote 01:05, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
  3. While it's not something I am wildly excited about, I wouldn't mind doing it, and if there aren't that many other people interested in it then I'm willing to assist in it. Jimcloud 03:02, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
  4. As a backup or whatever. I'm pretty inexperienced, which is why.C A T U S E05:37, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Resolution

Fistpaladinsmall
TacticAngel TALK 23:35, February 13, 2012 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to be making any further headway. Conversation has been sparse recently, but in keeping with what I have said previously I would like to bring this to a close. Considering all options regarding the DNC, and what has been posted here and on the talk page, I will sort of outline what I'm putting where.
  • The DNC Committee will include the four people who volunteered, plus me (sort of).
  • The DNC Committee will move the archive of prior fights to an appropriate subpage.
  • The DNC Committee should determine what they want to nomination page to look like, how/if it should be archived, etc.
  • The DNC Committee should create (or rather move) a master-list of what fights have been posted previously to an appropriate subpage, probably Final Fantasy Wiki:Dragon's Neck Colosseum/History or something similar.
  • The DNC Committee shall decide who fights who based on the nomination page. Some general guidelines regarding popularity should be considered, but ultimately, they will also be using their best judgment.
  • No rule changes appear to have any significant backing, so I haven't amended any at this point, aside from removing my most favorite one (and that is a joke). The committee can consider and debate the merits of future rules changes if any should be required.
  • The DNC Committee shall update the DNC bi-monthly, similar to other project pages. They may decide whether they wish to continue the Last Man Standing as the major theme, discontinue it, or as a secondary fight, etc.
  • My involvement in the DNC will be minimal. I have included my name on the updated top section of the project page, but my involvement on the staff should not be considered day to day, even if I am on nearly that often. Expect me to weigh in on issues of policy or rules, but unless you need me to do something, I don't intend to do much other than hand out my beautiful yellow and red cards.

I am still interested in what the DNC is, and have some vested interest in its success. I do have quite a bit of knowledge and insight as far as things that go on in the DNC, years of observation I could pass along and even some empirical observations I would be happy to pass along to the new members. I imagine that could be of some help.

Happy voting!

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Does it really matter if you are new? Really? Does anyone have a problem with that? If so, why?

Two fights at the same time is a bad idea. Alternating between LMS and norm DNC is a better idea, however I think we could do without LMS altogether. It's not that interesting, and it just keeps the same characters appearing in fights over and over again. 79.69.206.111 17:14, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

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I don't see any real point in LMS. It was an idea thought up by TA out of the blue... and honestly, though people may believe it's interesting, it isn't really.

Alternating between LMS and normal fights just gets confusing, and puts too much emphasis on LMS which I don't see as as important as a normal fight would. And I also disagree with having two fights at the same time.

And I'm inclined to not update at the same time as the FI. Things updating at different times is more fun. 79.69.200.5 19:55, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

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Blegh, sorry about the way I came over on my points in LMS. I just haven't heard much support for it, just comments on how it could work in the DNC.

As for your comments DSS, so you say. The FA is already updated on a different schedule to the FI. For the DNC to update at the same time as the FI seems like a strange pairing.

But if that reasoning doesn't change your mind (which it unlikely will), things updating on different days is how all things work. Just for a second, think about a website or a blog that writes articles. Say this website/blog has different article-series. In a five week period, would you prefer them to upload one article every week, or would you prefer them to upload five on the same day on the fifth week? Most people will choose the former. Same goes with YouTube subscriptions, users much prefer to see frequent activity than activity in larger quantities. Uploading multiple videos at the same time is what has caused people to unsubscribe to YouTubers (with them gaining weekly net losses, it's rather humorous).

Of course, that's not quite what's going on here. But we'll take that five-article idea a bit further. Say the schedules for the five different articles were based on the day of the week. So you'd do one on Monday, another on Tuesday, etc. You would much prefer them to be added on different days rather than all on one day.

The thing about uploading them on different days is that users who visit everyday can see something new on each day. People who visit once a week can still see all the things on one day if they like, but if they visit more frequently they don't have to.

So users won't get annoyed. They don't have to come here everyday if they don't want to. They could still come here every two weeks and see all the updates at one time. But most people prefer frequent small updates to less-frequent large updates. The difference is that the wiki updates features two times in two weeks over three times in two weeks. And the latter sounds better. 79.69.195.2 14:17, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

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Completely disagree. We shouldn't treat projects unequally. When a website starts up the website will have to act like it has an audience. If they say "no one's probably reading this"-- it is both annoying to readers and unprofessional.

Also your opinions on who pays attention to the FA and FI is unfounded. DNC is interactive, the others are not. Therefore you are definitely going to see more focus around the DNC.

It is equally easy to update on different days to separate days, especially since those who work on one do not on the other. It is not "more convenient" to users to update things on the same day.

So as much as you can argue that the DNC is more popular and the others, this hardly justifies updating things on the same day. If this were the case, then the DNC would further overshadow everything that isn't the DNC (since users will visit the mainpage to check for a DNC update and pay less attention to other changes on the mainpage as that is what they are mainly there for: if they were there and the DNC had not updated then they would pay more attention to other things). 79.69.193.112 16:17, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

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That is a rational reason and I am fine with that reason alone. I just happen to disagree with every other reason given in this topic. 79.69.193.112 16:54, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

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Voter comments

Maybe no one is saying anything because there's so much confusion, or it's not their place, but that's probably just me. Maybe, just maybe, it is now running fine the way it is. BlitzballArtTidus357 01:31, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Since Drake thinks we don't care, I'll contribute and prove I do. However, anything I say is probably unneeded, because things seem to be running fine the way they are now. The fights are more frequent and updated when they actually need to be. I don't know what everyone's moaning about, personally. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 13:03, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what they WERE moaning about! Well, at least that's what I was, and I know BH was kinda annoyed we don't have a bureaucrat, but you said you AGREED with him on that one, and we now DO have a bureaucrat -- getting off-topic here. Whatever, I don't think I could stay on topic if I was held at gunpoint :3 C A T U S E 17:32, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
What do you mean we have bcrat? 79.69.194.176 20:08, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
???? - +DeadlySlashSword+ 20:12, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
TA is a bureaucrat, is he not? BH complained about not having a bureaucrat on both this thread and Forum:New bcrat, did he not? C A T U S E 23:15, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
"BH was kind of annoyed we don't have a bureaucrat"
This could mean one of two things, BH was annoyed we didn't have an active bcrat, or we didn't have one at all. Of course the latter is wrong. And anyway, Diablo is still here, even if only infrequently.
"and we now DO have a bureaucrat"
This is what confuses me. We had bcrats, they just weren't active enough.
And now we have TA who is NOT active enough. 79.69.206.103 23:36, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
Well waddaya know. I honestly thought TA was relatively active -- guess that's not the case. Disregard everything I said after "That's exactly what they WERE moaning about!", 'kay? :/ C A T U S E 23:40, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
I am reasonably present at all times. Watching. Judging. Judging. Watching, but really more judging. T·A·C·T·I·C·A·N·G·E·L 00:38, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
That sounds kinda creepy... always here... HE'S A SPY! =P C A T U S E 18:50, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
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