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Forums: Index > The Labyrinth of Time > Canonicity of Bravely Default (Redux)

FFRK Shantotto

Once again, I disagree, and I still think it belongs under tier 1 for reason 3. Specifically:

  • A "job system" isn't just any class system as you say, but a class system in which the class can be changed to any unlocked class fairly freely, that draws most of its classes from a very distinctly Final Fantasy set of classes, many of which have an identity that is consistent from game to game and is distinct from generic fantasy. Neither Kingdom Hearts nor the Mana series have a true job system. I defy you to find one commercially published game that meets all of the criteria I have listed for having a job system, but is not a Tier 1 covered game.
  • Spells. Most of the game's spells are identical to classic Final Fantasy spells in both name and effect. 100% of white magic, 100% of black magic, and 89% of time magic are taken directly from other Final Fantasy games. Moreover, most spells are in the particular category that they are usually found in elsewhere in the series. Kingdom Hearts can't claim that. The Mana series can't even begin to claim that.
  • Other abilities. Again loads of them are taken directly from the rest of the series.
  • Items. Every single healing item is taken from the Final Fantasy series, both in name and effect. Over half the battle items are taken from the Final Fantasy series, in name and effect. Many of the weapons, armor, and accessories are taken from the Final Fantasy series in name and effect. Again, neither Kingdom Hearts nor the Mana series can claim this.

I believe that not only is Bravely Default worthy of full Tier 1 coverage based on the above listed elements, but it is actually closer to the main Final Fantasy series than some of the other Tier 1 games; Chocobo Racing comes to mind.

Oh, and while I was confident that they would change the title to include the name "Final Fantasy" when they translated it (ala Chocobo's Dungeon getting the "Final Fantasy Fables" title) and was rather surprised when they didn't, it wasn't a pivotal factor in my decision. I was expecting Square-Enix to lack confidence in the English-speaking commercial viability of their non-Final Fantasy titles--most of them have failed, after all--and change the allusion to an inclusion, for marketing purposes and I'm curious as to why they didn't. They have leaned on the Final Fantasy name rather heavily in the past, to the point of rebranding the early SaGa games as "Final Fantasy Adventure". I can only speculate that they really did feel that they had damaged the Final Fantasy brand with their recent problems and no longer could rely on it to get sales rather than lose them. But who knows? Hashmalum (talk) 09:40, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger has same/similar names for magic as FF and items and is not covered by us at all. Tactics Ogre has basically the same jobs as the Ivalice FF games and we don't cover that. I think these kinda things could be seen as Square staples rather than strictly FF staples. Bravely Default should have its own wiki if it's becoming a self-contained series.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 12:10, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
Pretty tricky. I'm divided: on one hand, it's much more FF-esque than some more recent FFs, but on the other it's completely different setting: the summons are not even the ones from FF and the Orthros boss is not the woman-loving purple octopus, but a two-headed devil dog which actually lessens connection to the FF series. If we want to create wiki for that series I think [bravely.wikia.com] would be best as 'bravely' is the common word in all three currently known games. Despite not owning 3DS and Bravely Default I'd be actually happy to maintain that Wiki so it wouldn't fall into ruin (after watching so many walkthrough videos of BD and loving every single one of them it would be shame if its Wiki turned into a waste bin of randomness and ads).—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 12:29, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
I think Kelt is pretty on point with the notion that the things being put forth as FF staples really are Square staples. I think its also important to note that saying something like "100% of white magic, 100% of black magic" is quite misleading because most of the white and black magic are also present in T4HoL, which BD is a spiritual successor for anyway. In some instances I would hesitate to say 'successor' so much as 'we got lazy to come up with new names so we're just going to use the ones from the last project we made'. On this point, where we've seen how many of these spells/abilities/items appear in other non-FF games, the ones that are consistently exclusive to FF are notably missing from BD. None, or should I say, 0% of the 6 summons are from any FF universe.. and that to me is extremely telling.--Arciele Spira (talk) 06:32, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support shifting all our content to a Bravely Default wiki. We could weasel our way into giving it second-tier coverage due to its apparent official spiritual link to T4HoL and (which itself is pseudo-spiritually linked to classic FF). 2.102.230.70 15:45, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I have seen news articles noting that Bravely Default actually has some bosses from 4 Warriors of Light. here. I haven't played either game, so I don't know how significant it is.

On another note: fuck Final Fantasy. Lightning Returns is refried shit. Bravely Default is something new. Our wiki is based around no concept other than branding. It is shameless. Fuck the brand. Fuck Square Enix. I've been tired of their bullcrap for years now. --BlueHighwind 20:03, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think those bosses are the 4 Heroes of Light equivalent of the Four Fiends. The 4 Heroes of Light is like a re-imagining of the original Final Fantasy, with time travel and a time loop being maintained by a demon called "Chaos" who sends four lesser demons, the "four fiends" to the world to corrupt the world, but a magical sentient crystal chooses to grant its power to four warriors who become the Heroes of Light... It's not really clear to me whether the storylines of the two games are in any way linked, or if the connections are just homages because they are being made by the same team for a similar audience.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 20:28, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

After playing it for myself, I wholeheartedly agree with Hashmalun. The level of FF referencing in spell/ability/item lists goes far and beyond what would be considered normal for Square. It would be considered typical for them to share a few things between games. However, to see near identical lists of things and to blow it off as "Oh, SE does this all the time!" is ridiculous. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 05:51, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

If Bravely Default is said to be a sequel to a Final Fantasy game shouldn't that be enough to keep it here anyway? Everything else has been said already so I'm keeping this short. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 18:03, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

It's not a sequel to a Final Fantasy game. JBed (talk) 19:17, December 16, 2013 (UTC)
A successor then. And if that's wrong, then "Although the game has an original title, it is considered a spiritual successor of Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light, a "gaiden" or "spin-off" of the main Final Fantasy series, by its creators" needs removing from the article. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 19:20, December 16, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, and giving first-tier coverage to a spiritual successor that had "Final Fantasy" in its title would be fine. Except they specifically decided to not call it "Final Fantasy". Giving it a page and mentioning on parents, as part of our second-tier coverage, should be acknowledgement enough for our wiki. Second-tier coverage means we cover it for how it references Final Fantasy rather than how it is Final Fantasy. JBed (talk) 19:24, December 16, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not saying it deserves to be first tier, I'm saying that to some degree it should be here in some way. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 19:32, December 16, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I gave this some time for comments to come in. Evidently there are supporters on both sides.. or maybe 3 sides. Keep as tier 1, keep as tier 2/3, or move it all over to Bravely Wiki. (EDIT: 2nd and 3rd outcome actually do give the same effect, so its 2) Given that there is no consensus, maybe we need to take a vote? I don't suppose we have an arbitrator or judge... so here goes? bottom of page --Arciele Spira (talk) 04:02, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

(because my revert reason is too long for the summary) Spira, I have the game. On the start screen, you select a save file and the subtitle clearly appears. And it has to be there due to something the game does on the bad ending path. Don't make me set up Miiverse just to take one bloody screenshot of the title screen. You did not say anything about the published title in your little fact sheet, and in-game allusions are just as important as ones in the published title so don't hide something on a technicality because it hurts your case. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 22:19, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

I don't have the game anymore. Go ahead, screenshot it.. in fact, take a video to show clearly how and when the game's subtitle pops up. It's supposed to help your case no? Whatever it is, it's not immediately shown in the title screen. you need to do something for that to happen. I removed the additional comment because I didn't want to edit it, but if you insist that it is in there, then I will. You do not add conjecture into a fact sheet - only display the evidence, and let people decide. You cannot say 'this is an allusion' on a fact sheet because you cannot prove an allusion on a balance unless the devs in this case have outright declared 'hey, Flying Fairy is named that way because FF is the same initials as Final Fantasy', which they haven't done. Allusions are subjective based on what each person thinks. For example, why is Flying Fairy an allusion to Final Fantasy? Why can't it actually just be an important Flying Fairy that appears in game? Why isn't Rinoa Ultimecia? You can choose to believe what you wish to believe - you just cannot prove it. No one is saying that in-game allusions are not as important as a published title - it's just that you don't know what a fact is. Substantive. Objective. No arguing required. Adding a point to show that Flying Fairy is no longer in the title actually strengthens my position btw. In any case, I've edited it to give more clarity for your benefit.--Arciele Spira (talk) 05:30, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

A Wiki Bravely Emerges!

Alright. I just created a Wiki for it: Bravely. I thought that "Bravely Default Wiki" wouldn't be a very good naming idea since it's possible there's gonna be Bravely Third, Bravely Fourth, and spinoffs to those, I guess. If anyone wants to dump articles there, please do so. If anyone wants to tinker with coding, then please ask me there about giving you admin rights (people with admin rights or higher can edit MediaWiki, right)?—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) ∙ 16:11, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

>mfw: I_came_here_to_laugh_at_you.jpg

Kaimi, do you know what happened to the Dissidia wiki? Neither do I, I think it's dead because making a wiki to cover just one game in a larger series is fully retarded. And you just went full retard. User:R8.50Mango/Sig2 08:44, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

not sure if retarded or silly to compare Dissidia with Bravely. Dissidia was a special project that deliberately draws from characters, places, themes and objects across the series to celebrate it. Apart from its battle system and Cosmos, you'll be hard-pressed to find any true original content to begin with in Dissidia and Duodecim. Only the opposite is true about Bravely. From the very beginning Dissidia had more ties to other games than it does to itself, which is why it made more sense for it to belong here. Besides, dead wikis are only dead because people choose not to contribute to them, something which I'm sure you're quite familiar with anyway. What Kaimi did is but the first step in an eventuality - its really just a matter of when it happens. Also, Bravely Default + Praying Brage + Bravely Second is 3 games, not 1.--Arciele Spira (talk) 13:03, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
FFVII Cait Sith Battle
FFRK Shantotto
FFVII Cait Sith Battle
FFRK Shantotto

Fact Sheet

Useful points to note before casting your vote. --Arciele Spira (talk) 08:24, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

  • Bravely is referred to as its own series by its developers.
  • Bravely currently has 3 games - Bravely Default, Praying Brage and Bravely Second. The producer aims to release one Bravely game each year.
  • The international title for BD is simply Bravely Default, and the Japanese title for its updated version is Bravely Default: For the Sequel. This removes the words 'Flying Fairy' from the published title, as well as marketing material.
  • The original subtitle does appear in game, translated as 'where the Fairy Flies', with the Fs capitalised.
  • In accordance with the scope, the only reason why BD is still within tier one coverage is because it "is based around an element that was birthed in the Final Fantasy series".
  • No common ground can be established as to what these elements are. The dividing question is: Are they FF elements or just RPG tropes? .
  • At present, in-game allusions to the Final Fantasy series are found mainly in Bravely Default. It is not known how much the other 2 games allude to FF.
  • Regardless of the outcome, BD will still have a presence on this wiki - it will either be full or minimal (likely just one page) coverage due to its connection as a spiritual successor to T4HoL.
  • The canonicity of Bravely Default does not automatically extend to Praying Brage or Bravely Second - they are subject to the scope accordingly.
  • In accordance with the scope, the quality of a game has no bearing on whether coverage is given or not.

Vote

What level of coverage should we give Bravely Default? (Bravely Default refers to the game itself, and not the Bravely series)

-voting will close after 7 days of non-activity from the last vote-

Keep as Tier I

  • Per Hashmalum's wall-of-text in the original thread, as well as what SCM said C A T U S E 04:58, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  • I'll always vote this way. --BlueHighwind 05:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm quite certain my opinion has not changed. If Bravely Second ends up feeling way out of scope, then maybe I'll agree with low coverage of the series, but I have no problems with BD being here in full. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 06:18, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  • Made by Square and is obviously a spiritual successor to T4HoL, if not FF as a whole. That's good enough for me. --ShirubaKurono Dissicon ff13 Lig3 08:32, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  • It feels so much like a FF game, plus it's the spiritual successor to T4HoL, a lot of the spells are similar (Even though the summons are not) and it does FF allusions. Plus it's original subtitle, Flying Fairy, abbreviate to FF... TMG- Why? (talk) 17:09, December 25, 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree with SCM at the moment; lower coverage is probably only necessary if it does end up branching out. Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 17:16, December 25, 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, SCM has me convinced. The least we can do is wait and see where it goes. Lord Grammaticus (talk) 00:42, December 26, 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I agree with SCM - BlitzballArtTidus357 09:18, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Keep as Tier II/III

(ie. move existing Bravely Default articles to other wiki)

  1. I feel the need to highlight that Tier 2 still means we shift all our Bravely Default articles to the other wiki. We just keep an article for the Bravely Default series and relevant parent mentionings can stay intact but will be moved to an "Other appearances" section. JBed (talk) 05:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  2. Ah.. That is a good point to make. I think the only situation where the 3rd position makes sense is if we concede that Bravely has absolutely no connection with FF at all, which nobody is claiming. Editing and putting a note for that.--Arciele Spira (talk) 06:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
  3. I just don't think it's meant to be a Final Fantasy game. Also it sounds like they want to make it a long-running series.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 17:54, December 24, 2013 (UTC)
  4. It a distinct series. Sure it pulls some stuff from Final Fantasy, but so does a lot of games made by SE. HarpieSiren (talk) 17:45, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

Conclusion

This has stagnated for a week, so we're ending this now. The people who want this game to stay tier 1 outnumber the rest 2:1 so everything's staying as is. This does not automatically include Bravely Second but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. -- Some Color Mage ~ (Talk) 01:09, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

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