Are Tidus and Vaan hated that much that you guys don't put them in the Final Fantasy Wiki logo? I mean c'mon that's kinda harsh. You guys can put Squall up there and an Onion Kid up there but not Tidus and Vaan? Balthier does call himself the leading man and is involved in the plot a lot more than Vaan but still.... | |||
What Wiki Logo? I thought the Chocobo with the book was our logo. | |||
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 22:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | |||
Who cares? Balthier is much more kickass than Vaan, but about Tidus, I don't understand... | |||
Diff logos by skin, BH. And yes, im pretty sure tidus and vaan have a large hate base. I like tidus myself | |||
Oh, sorry I should've been more clear. The thing that says final fantasy wiki in the top left hand corner, and Vaan is somewhat understandable but I actually liked Tidus as well. | |||
Yes, both of them are hated so much that they are not on that logo thing (found it on Category: Site Images). Vaan is such a loser that I will personally make sure he is never a Featured Article. We replaced Tidus with Vaan on that picture months ago. Tell me right now that Tidus is better then Yuna. I will make your face go insideout. | |||
Born from Darkness Talk · Contribs 23:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC) | |||
Tidus is better then Yuna. XD J/K, I hate him as much as Gaz hates Dib. | |||
Ok, true but if it is supposed to be based off better characters then shouldn't Tifa replace Cloud, Quistis replace Squall and Vivi replace Zidane? I mean if it is supposed to be better characters than I understand but if it's supposed to be main characters then I am confused. | |||
Yuna is a major character in FFX and the main character of FFX-2. And it isn't main characters, its notable characters. Notice no Vaan, but yet Baltheir is there? And Edea should be the one to replace Squall, but there is no picture of her in the right style. | |||
TheSwordofDoubt - Xemnas may not be eternal, but his speeches definitely are. TALK - Nanoha ain't called "The White Devil" for no reason. | |||
I like Tidus. He's not that bad. But Yuna can do so much more. | |||
whoever hasn't finished X is gonna kill me, Tidus was ok, but he was also a ghost and Vaan was extremely gay. | |||
TheSwordofDoubt - Xemnas may not be eternal, but his speeches definitely are. TALK - Nanoha ain't called "The White Devil" for no reason. | |||
Why would I kill you? | |||
Dark raven - The Prince must wake soon or the Dark Raven will dominate! TALK - Drums > Guitar, and you know that I'm right. {{{time}}} | |||
I didn't like Tidus (although not as much as Wakka) but Vaan was just over 9000 times worse. He sucks sooo much. Gay? No, gays aren't that lame. | |||
While I admit Tidus irked me at time, I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate the guy. I mean, he did change a lot over the course of the game. Vaan was decent, but he certainly isn't one of my favorite main characters. I think people toss around the word "hate" way too much. I don't see how anybody could "hate" fictional characters, to be honest. Part of me thinks that most people merely join the bandwagon when it comes to these two. A few people say Vaan or Tidus sucks, so the next guy wants to fit in and says it, too. At least that's how it seems to me. | |||
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I agree with you Adam. Tidus was a really good character actually plotwise, as a character, and especially in battle. He wasn't that bad. Vaan was...eh ok. | |||
Sora_Rainstorm - Oh! Um, I'm just an innocent flower girl who loves bad boys! TALK - 4:00 May 14, 2008 | |||
It's not that I hate Tidus; I just found his complaining, upbeat attitude a little annoying. Otherwise, I don't hate him as much as other characters. As for Vaan... I haven't fully played FFXII long enough to decide. Although right off, his voice I didn't like at the start. | |||
I will seriously vomit if i hear one more word about either of those whiney, sword wielding, weak pieces of crap. due to the versatility of FFX and XII, Tidus and Vaan is made more or less redundant, they don't have exceedingly good stats and the voices get on the top of my metaphorical brain | |||
Krystal Tomlin - "When prayers turn to promises, not even fate can stand in our way." TALK - 01:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC) - "Wouldn't wanna be you!" | |||
Err, excuse me. Am I missing something? The last time I checked, Tidus has a good balance of strength and agility enough to take out more agile foes as well as his Time Magic abilities. Vaan, on the other hand, has a very good balance of stats, especially excelling in the physical stakes, although I've never actually played Final Fantasy XII. Tidus and Vaan are both whiners, I agree, but come on! I happen to be one of those people wise enough to not hate any characters from the Final Fantasy series, or any other games for that matter. Each character is different, both battle-and-personality-wise, and that will nenver change. Period. | |||
I have no problems with either of them, I have seen far worse in this series alone. I just dislike arguing with the brick wall that is the fandom. Oh, and Basch should replace Balthier on that logo thing. Just saying. | |||
Angel of Heresy - It is all the same to me, my heart is filled with dust and sand… TALK - The High Seraph {{{time}}} | |||
I have a sort of love-hate thing going on for both Vaan and Tidus. I abhored Tidus in the beginning of X for obvious reasons but during the second half of the game, he grew on me - I even shed a few tears during the end! But Vaan, on the other hand... the only reasons for me to like him is because he makes a good tank and he has a really purdy face in the FMVs. But ew... his abs... We all know that Balthier is the leading man anyway! What were we talking about again? | |||
The main problem with Vaan is that he does not have almost dialogs in the story, it is very difficult to try to take appreciation to a character who only are in the background.
I prefer Vaan over Balthier, he is so Arrogant. (sorry if my english aren't good)
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTrNojnDiU
Krystal Tomlin - "When prayers turn to promises, not even fate can stand in our way." TALK - 23:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC) - "Wouldn't wanna be you!" | |||
Vaan doesn't look all that bad to me. Like he says: "I'm through running." I love how he comes to realize that revenge is not the answer and decides to stick with Ashe in order to find some real answers. | |||
That's exactly what I hate about Vaan. "Revenge is not the answer". Why? Because stock fiction moral cliches say that it's bad? He's good for no reason. He's had no development. Vaan starts by hating the Empire a little for good reason, and then by the end he doesn't hate anybody. For what? What's changed? Nothing. He's learned nothing. He's the same asshole we started out with. Totally one-demensional. You know who Vaan reminds me of? Little Bear. And I hate nothing more than Little Bear. | |||
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Even though his abs are COMPLETELY revolting, I only hate Vaan as much as I do because he was so amazingly irrelevant. I don't think anything would've changed if he wasn't there, except that people would actually appreciate the good game that it is. Tidus, though, has given me a terrible first impression and I have become lazy to continue the game. | |||
Deadlyslashsword - +It takes disaster to learn a lesson, but you're going to make it through the darkest nights+ TALK - {{{time}}} - Some people betray and cause treason...we're gonna make everything alright. | |||
I hate neither. I see no reason to hate Tidus besides his whinyness, but I can with Vaan (Where do I begin?). Still, I think it's irrational to actually hate a fictional character. Dislike, I can understand...Besides, the only character I dislike is Edea. (Sorry, Blue.) | |||
Krystal Tomlin - "When prayers turn to promises, not even fate can stand in our way." TALK - To amend for my sins... - "Wouldn't wanna be you!" | |||
And the only character I really really hate is that damned scientist by the name of Hojo! Ugh, he has caused soooo much trouble! | |||
Now that I think about it, you are completely right about how irrational it is to hate a fictional character. Okay, okay. I'll do it again: I dislike Vaan solely because he is completely irrelevant. Thank you for that reminder. ;D Then again...there's Penelo... *gasp* | |||
Vaan makes Kuja look manly. | |||
hey excuse me, but in my view, both Tidus and Vaan are okay, but the way they contribute to the game is what gives them a bad reputation and "hate"
Vaan doesn't really contribute to the plot a lot after rabanastre, I'd would like it more if the story was told from Baltheir's point of view. | |||
i suppose it might make it more exciting, but what about all those years loked in that stupid birdcage?} :
Wait, what birdcage? | |||
sorry i meant bach was in the bird cage so balthier the sky pirates point of view eh? well i guess it would be ok, but had there been his point of view, most people woudnt get a lot of major concepts of the game like hunts, although im sure the smart and ingenuetive crew at square enix would think of a way to incorporate it into the story plot (not that ff twelve has much of one) - anderson5
Hmm...in my opinion, Tidus was brash and cocky compared to Vaan. I don't necessarily hate Vaan (though I do hate his character design for FFXII) because compared to everyone else in your party, he talks in a different way much like commoner-speak (while everyone else talks like royalty or something, except Penelo), making him quite an odd character...Either way, I hate Tidus more because, well not only is his design is horrendous, but his attitudes just stand out compared to everyone else's (including Rikku, who somehow is supposed to relate to Tidus or something like that...) ...yeah, excuse the extremely long entry... | |||
DrakemasterDrake - "I would rather live a short life of glory than a long one of obscurity." TALK - {{{time}}} The clock on this site is so messed up, why bother? | |||
Tidus is a great character. Vaan is, well, decent. | |||
Born from Darkness Talk · Contribs 17:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
Here's the truth; yes, they are hated that much and they always will be. They suck. You can't defend that statement. Now GTFO this page and stop bumping old topics. | |||
BfD, was the language really necessary? There's this thing called being nice. You should try it sometime. ^^right | |||
Born from Darkness Talk · Contribs 03:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
Me? Nice? Maybe if I'm in an extremely good mood. Expect bashing when I'm not. ... Alright, it's because I'm really pissed today since the holidays were so boring this year. Oh fine, I'll apoligize. I'm sorry... <pouts> -_-;; | |||
Who do you hate?
This should solve it for good, proving which is hated more, and to what degree they are hated. because everyone knows opinion polls are 100% accurate *Dies a little* | |||
I have always loved Tidus, he's a character that people can identify with. He has a strong hatred for his dad, and he matures through the course of the game, who doesn't know what that feels like?! As for Vaan, he's the supposedly protaganist of FFXII, but he is mostly a background character with almost no personality. So there. | |||
Terra_Homing - "Will you stagger on, with no star to light your way?" TALK - 22:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC) | |||
After the infamous laughing scene in Luca i could never look at Tidus in the same way and it REALLY annoyed me that know one ever says his name through the entire game, I'd just named him Tidus anyway! As for Vaan he just... has no soul. I think Yuna should be in the 'logo' as she plays a much bigger part in ten, she doesn't whine the whole time and is prepared to sacrifice herself, that's logo worthy. | |||
EDIT CONFLICT OK. I agree with BfD, why is the old and dead topic still being posted in? Stop bumping the topic already. We get the point. You have mixed feelings on Tidus, and hate Vaan for the reason that everyone else hates Vaan or whatever lame excuse you have. Enough! I am tired of this hate topic sprouting up. | |||
I don't think its nice that your all so mean about it there just pixel -_-Sxoxpxhxixe 21:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Tidus as an annoying, whiny cry-baby? Well gee, let's rip you from the world you know and are comfortable with, stick you in a world where everything you know was blown to bits a thousand years ago, give you the knowledge that you'll never be able to go back to said life, and that your dad (whom you haven't had a good relationship to being with) is the source of nearly all of the world's suffering and you have to kill him. Stressed much? I thought so.
As the game progresses, it's not so much that he changes, but that he's the change in everyone else. The entire group would have willingly sent Yuna to go kill herself to save the rest of Spira, but Tidus was the person to finally start asking the questions and going against the flow, much like the Al Bhed. Plus, you gotta give him some credit for being willing to sacrifice himself so that the cycle of death would end. He knew that he'd fade away after Yu Yevon was killed, but that didn't stop him from wanting the little bastard dead. Oh, and having to kill Jecht. Regardless of how much tension they had, that was a hard moment for him and the reason why he broke down crying after the battle ended.
On to Vaan now. Parents died to a plague and his other brother was killed during the war. Have some sympathy to the kid who was orphaned in a rather short period of time and in a rather critical stage in his life. Over the course of the game, he starts figuring out the truth of what's been going on in the world, and truth has a funny tendency to change people's thoughts and opinions. He doesn't ditch his desire for revenge, rather he redirects it towards the truly evil people in the Empire and decides to ally himself with the people trying set things to right. Plus, I didn't see anyone else able to pilot the Strahl while Balthier and Fran were trying to fix the Bahamut, so you can't say he's irrelevant to the story.
Try actually paying attention to the character's development before saying that they suck or are one-dimensional. --Shad Croly 22:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
You know, Shad Croly? You're right. I couldn't have said it better. I've never played XII, though. Cluna 06 00:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I think Tidus was OK. For example, all the parts where he was the story-teller. He was actually one of my favourite characters in FFX. Vaan didn't change very much in the game, but he is more like supporting char, so it doesn't matter. Compare him to Quina or Kimahri: They weren't main characters, and they were the same even at the end of the game. It would seem that Vaan was the main character, but he wasn't. Because of that, he should only be judged by his stats, not by his contributions to the story. Kupuntu 21:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I completely agree with you. Tidus was a good character, sorry but when you're taken 1000 years in the future (or so he thinks most of the time), you'd cry too. Tidus actually stops complaining when he learns he's a mere dream, but when he loses he father (that seems for me a good reason to cry). As for Vaan, he was always showed as the main character and I don't know why. Now let go of this guy. | |||
Tidus is hated 2x has much has Vaan. the poll has spoken, Faram Exdeath64 15:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Can you really read? Your poll is a Hatred Poll and Tidus has 8 while Vaan has 19. So it's the opposite. -Alarielle- 16:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
<sarcasm> excuse me | |||
UPDATE: i checked your userpage, sorry about the gender confusion.
Crazyswordsman - Final Fantasy VI, because Drake says he wants to link to FF7 every day, which is bad because that game is so far inferior to FF6. TALK - 18:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
If Tidus weren't around, Rikku and Auron would've convinced Yuna. | |||
I'm gonna go into bitch mode. Why do people say Tidus is a crybaby? Just because there are a lot of references to him crying in the game? Most of that happens when he's 10, and the only time I remember him crying as an adult is just after being forced to KILL HIS OWN FATHER. That doesn't make him "whiney," that makes him a good protagonist! As to whether or not Yuna is better, I think they're about even. It's not Tidus's fault that Yuna beats him to all of his attempts at being awesome.Neo Bahamut 03:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Master Conjurer — (talk) 02:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
I agree with the above statement. I can think of one other time Tidus cried: when he realized Yuna would die. That's not a crybaby, it's chaotic good. Vaan is misinterpreted in much the same way. "He isn't a major character, he ONLY APPEARS EVERY SECOND OF THE GAME IN WHICH HIS DEAD BROTHER DOESN'T. | |||
Tidus I related to from the very beginning. Sure, his reasons for hating his dad were a little silly, but he was 10, and it was basically a minor form of neglect. It happens, parenting isn't an easy job, and in trying to "toughen up" Tidus, he royally pissed him off. It was realistic, if nothing else. Vaan, on the other hand, I have no defense for. Reks would have made a much better main character. Vaan has his useful moments, like when he snuck into the palace, and his status as a confidante to Ashe, but other than that, he's just kind of shoved off to the side. It would be more bearable if he had some decent character development going on, but he really doesn't. Really, the whole Vaan portion of the game is just him dreaming about being a Sky Pirate. Kinda lame. But as bad as Vaan is, the other characters really aren't that much better. Basche is stereotypical, complete with an evil twin brother, Ashe was a decent character, but only because she wasn't a damsel in distress, Fran was blatant furry fanservice, Penelo is the only character more useless than Vaan, and Balthier is like the Final Fantasy James Bond...but somehow, that one works./rant.Neo Bahamut 05:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Its depressingly likely that what I have to say has already been said by someone else at some point, but I'm going to go ahead with my opinion anyway.
First off, Tidus. Personnally, I didn't really mind Tidus. Sure he's extrtemely annoying at regular intervals and his voice pissses me off, but he does at least have character. And he has purpose, he has a major role in the storyline, an instrument of change for Spira (for the betrer). Without him, nothing would ever have changed. And he does himself change during the pot, to the extent that I nearly managed to conjure up some kind of emotion upon his death/dissolution/whatever. And as for the accusations of crybaby, how well would any of us hold up under similar circumstances? Hell, how many of us could even lift the swords in your average FF? To conclude, I don't ike Tidus particularly, but I don't dislike him either.
Vaan on the other hand is the most annoying, worthless piece of sh*t ever to have the gall to claim to be the main character in any form of media ever created. Not only does he look like an utter f*ckup, he also sounds like one. Furthermore, his portrait in the party menu looks like one of the adverts for pornographic phone lines in the backs of magazines. In addition to this he is absolutely worthless he has no important role in the storyline whatsoever. For half the game he and Penelo (don't get me started on her) are just baggage, hanging around with the main party for no reason whatsoever. Ashe, Balthier, Basch, even Fran to an extent, they all have some relevance, but not these two. I'll grudgingly admit that he is redeemed somewhat by his usefulness in a fight, but to be honest I just find that a bit cheap and unrealistic. Yeah 'cos the annoying, whiny brat who's probably never had a decent fight in his life is stronger than the fully grown viera described in the manual as "a master (mistress, surely?) of weapons". Also, for some reason, Vaan changes halfway through the game from revenge-fueled, nationalistic, whiny annoying twat of dubious sexuality into a goody-goody idealistic whiny annoying twat of dubious sexuality FOR NO REASON AT ALL. To conclude, he has no purpose, no character and no... NO NOTHING! I could understand if either Balthier or Ashe took the leading role, but come on!
The Man In The Black Cape 15:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Neither Cloud nor Squall shall hinder us me
So yesterday I eventually put in my FFX game in after many years of not playing it. I REALLY don't like Tidus. His voice is extremely anoying and he for the one hour I played he was whining a BUNCH. I played from the part of the Besaid temple to the boat that I am going to go on soon. In that short amount of time there was like two cutscenes of him just crying about his father... It really anoyed me. Now for Vaan I played FFXII again after two or so weeks of not playing and I just got too Archades and he doesn't really bother me all that much. He is kind of like Tidus in a way in that he isn't the main FOCUS but still the main character. At least from how far I played so far. I agree though I thought he was a complete wimp when he forgave Basch for completely no reason at all and haven't really held a grudge for anything when that was the main focus at the beginning of the story... | |||
Neoganondorff- Tidus confuses me, Why would you go for the quiet church type girl when you could spend your time gawping at the goth badass woman wearing a skirt made of belts? As a playable character he is a great all rounder and you can get all his overdrive techniques pretty early in the game but the dude really needs to prioritise his affections.As for Vaan,i cant really comment as i played xii for five minutes and just didnt like the battle system! Blue lines and red lines and all sorts of weirdness! Give me the time honored ATB any day of the week. In my opinion though i would pick a Tidus/Vaan hybrid of lameness anyday over Wakka, I hate Blitzball, I hate Wakka.
Neoganandorff~And that is the battle cry of a chronic masturbator! Seriously. IRL, do you really prioritize appearance & fashion over personality? If so, just...just wow.... I prefer CTB. There's a feeling like you're actually at risk.
Big Chubby~That's not really whining. Aren't all of those scenes dreams &/or memories?
The Man in the Black Cape~Tidus's voice actor was pretty bad, but I think he got a little better as the game went on. And yeah, that disappearance thing really confused me. I was sad, but I wasn't entirely sure why.... But the whole master/mistress thing confuses most people. The thing is, mistress is used in a sexual context. It originally meant the same thing as concubine. So, believe it or not, master IS the more apropo title. The last thing I'd like to comment on is Tidus being "an instrument for change." It's true that they would have still had Auron, but Rikku probably wouldn't have gotten into the group without Tidus, so I kind of wonder if Jecht might have planned to include her. Regardless, even if Auron DID reveal what he knew about Sin, it's made pretty clear that they were only able to defeat Sin/the Final Aeon whenever Jecht was holding back. Exactly wherer Tidus fits in. I'm not really sure whether or not Auron & Jecht had him in mind for anything else, but that seems like the main reason he was brought in to help.Neo Bahamut 00:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I never cryed that much when I was 10 and Jecht wasn't THAT mean to him. He had a nightmare about it... and instead of focusing about the good memories of his past his decides to focus on his bad ones. Don't call me chubby.--BigCubby 03:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Neo Bahamut 05:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC):So Tidus is a little sensative. Every kid is different. All I'm saying is that, at Age 10, it's not really that big a deal if you cry every once in a while. Besides, you can't really make that claim, they don't really confirm how frequently he cried.
As to the whole "focusing on good memories," now you're being a little ridiculous. He has feelings of neglect and inferiority because of his father. Not only is that a reasonable personality trait, the emotional baggage is a central point of his character. If he started out as a happy-go-lucky, self-confident character, there'd be nothing to build on. He'd never get character development, and he'd be really boring, at worst. At best, he would be a character that does not fit in with his game. All of the other characters have something in their past that they're trying to overcome. Yuna's gotten this idea beaten into hear head that she needs to sacrafice herself for the world, Auron's got his failure to save his 2 best friends, Wakka & Lulu have grief over Chappu's death, Hell, even Kimahri has this rivalry with Biran & Yenke over his horn. The only character who might be an exception is Rikku, and I bet that if you were pressed, you could probably find something.
So, why not complain about the fact that Wakka is unfairly & immaturely trying to replace Chappu with Tidus? Or that Lulu was a seriously insensitive bitch to the both of them, for a while, because of that? Or, my big thing, Kimahri, and his race's phallic overcompensation headpiece. Seriously, it's a broken horn, and he's about a foot shorter than most Ronso. BIG DEAL.
Tidus is getting a really unfair deal, here, is being represented as much whinier than he really is. In an odd juxtaposition, Auron is seen as incredibly badass, but I think that charging Yunalesca was incredibly stupid.
Unlike Vaan, he actually contributes the story and party dynamics usefully, and that easily outweighs his flaws, making him a legitimate character.
In conclusion, sorry for the TL;DR rant, but this is a fun argument, and amazingly, it's about an FF game that ISN'T VII!
PS: Haha, name pun! :PNeo Bahamut 05:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I could go on about other characters in the game that I don't like but we are talking about Vaan and Tidus. The other characters in X were just as bad except you can ignore them more because they are supporting characters. Kihmari is by far the worst character in my eyes because he was a complete loser. He acted all tough by turned out being the blue mage of the group which is always fail. Auron didn't do anything that was awesome he just the best characer IMO because of his strength. Yuna was the only character I enjoyed in that game because she seemed the less anoying. Tidus just reminded me a young boy who just hit puberty. Also he didn't hit on Lulu because she probably intimidated him. Yea I understand character development blah blah but they could have made a better character is what I amtrying to say. He fits the hero mold but he still sucks.--BigCubby 15:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess there's just know point in arguing with fandom and people who get on bandwagons. BTW the FFX cast is one of the best I have seen.Judge Balthier 16:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Iv'e got nothing better to do in school.--BigCubby 18:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Somepeople just don't like them... I personally think Vaan's okay. Tidus, however, I think is just too whiny.To each his own. For The Record(My First Talkbubble finally worked...Yay! | |||
Judge Balthier - Hamshanks! TALK - It matters not. "Good sense? Me? You have no idea who you're dealing with..." | |||
BigChubby: Ah, okay, now I at least know where you stand on this. Kimahri sucks because his Ronso Rags were terrible, not necessarly for any sort of character developement...although his IS the weakest.... As for awesomeness and how Auron personifies it, what about crawling halfway across the world, including up & down a freezing mountain, all while half dead & with only one eye? You can hit on Lulu once or twice in the game, but could you blame Tidus for being intimidated? Half of her lines were along the lines of, "I don't like you," and "Chappu is dead, get over it." And, I'm going to pull the oldest card in the book: How would you have made the characters? Oh, and also, Vaan? Okay? If Tidus is whiney, then Vaan is full-blown-cutting-his-wrists-writing-terrible-poetry. Seriously. "Oh my God, Archadia is so terrible, I want to become a Sky Pirate & fly away from them all!"
Judge Balthier: What he said. Seriously, if I had anything better to do, why would I be on the FF wiki? (No offense.) I'm trying to keep the argument as objective as possible (with the exception of my Vaan immitation). Rather than comment on Big Chubby's opinions, I'm trying to point out the aims of the characteriation. And this isn't a banwagon. That "FFVII is terrible, they need to stop" thing is a bandwagon. It's so frustrating that I often get into these long-winded arguments to counter them. What's hilarious is that I'll sometimes be called an obsessed fanboy for simple things, such as dismissing the misconception that Sephiroth is under the control of Jenova.Neo Bahamut 22:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
NEOGANONDORFF_"Chronic mastubator"? OUCH!! Dude, i was just kidding- SHE'S FICTIONAL! Just thinking out loud here, I just bought FF1 for the psp (Beautiful game btw)and a lot of people here myself included rant on about Tidus being a crybaby, Can you imagine having this discussion about Warrior of light? Or any of the other basic 4 in ff1? I take it all back, Character development has come a huge way in storyline terms and Tidus' emotions should be appreciated as a human element to what is a solid story in the FF series. Still cant comment on Vaan though,and by the time i get around to playing xii this topic will be gone .As for the CTB i'm not completely dismissing it but i just didn't get comfortable with it,upon reflection though it does remind me of Knights of the old republic-you pick an action but are not completely in charge.oh and btw,If you are gonna call me a mastubator at least leave your name.
He has a point. Tidus whiny contributes to his hatred of Jecht, witch is a major plot in the game since he hates him.Can you imagine how it would be if we was serious? Or Even emo | |||
I think I hurt his feelings. O_O FYI, the name is up there, I just put it at the end of everyone I was talking to. The thing I like about ATB is that you have time to plan. However, it gets old just sort of sitting back, selecting off the menu, lather, rinse, repeat. Character development has come along way, which is why I probably couldn't play any of the earlier ones.
Basically, all of Tidus's whiney tendencies can be traced back to his hatred of Jecht. Even the hilarious dream thing in the beginnings of the game. "You? With a woman? You can't even keep hold of a ball!" *Wakes up.* "I HATE YOU!"Neo Bahamut 21:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't mind Tidus but a few of his scenes are cringe worthy. When he found out what happens to a summoner after they summon the Final Aeon I wanted to put my fist through the screen how annoying he was, although I think that had more to do with his voice actor than anything else. --StragusLore 22:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)StragusLore
- And if you discovered that everyone was hiding from you the fact that the love of your life was supposed to die, you wouldn't shout and hit things? —MasterConjurer 01:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
It's not that. It's his voice during that scene. I really have nothing against Tidus. I just despise his voice actor. --StragusLore 01:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- It's just like when people like a particular voice actor. That's not the character. The Japanese voice actor is. I only watch AC in Japanese because it's the only way to really get a feel for who the characters are. —MasterConjurer 01:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I realize that. It just took me a while to get adjusted to the voice. I do actually like Tidus and I felt bad for him at the end of the game. --StragusLore 01:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Argh! Don't even get me started on that voice acting nonsense! You can't speak Japanese, you aren't getting anything more out of it. In fact, without the caption, you'd be completely lost! And I've heard it said that, as a rule, English voice actors always suck. This is not true. In AC, I liked several of the English voice actors better, with the only noteworthy exception being Sephiroth--and I'll still prefer to hear his lines in English, because I'll actually know what he's saying! I have said several times that Tidus's voice actor wasn't very good. In Dirge of Cerberus, Lucretia's downright sucked. But Rikku, Yuna, Auron, Reeve, Vincent, Rosso, their voice actors all did great jobs. Disregard all of this if you're fluent in both languages. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
You don't have to be fluent in Japanese to enjoy the Japanese voice actors. I memorized the content of AC and know who says what and when, and can therefore watch it muted without subtitles and still know what's being said, let alone Japanese, in which I can understand a good deal of pronouns and verbs. | |||
You're still getting the meaning from English. You're getting the basic emotions from the Japanese, but you can get the same thing, along with the precise meanings, from English. Until you can sit down, watch it in only Japanese, without any translation aids, and explain what happened accurately, your "feel for the characters" is coming from English, NOT Japanese. For example, if you can't understand the phrase, "Shall I give you despair?" in Japanese, you will not understand that Sephiroth is trying to get revenge on Cloud. I don't know how much of the language that you know, but it seems highly likely to me that a native-speaker could notice flaws in performance much better than you could. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 01:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
The meaning may be from English, but the feeling (tone, pitch, etc.) are from the Japanese. By the way, the first time I watched the film was on a pirated copy in Japanese with missing subtitles. I watched it in English once to catch a couple of meanings and make sure the others were right. And now that I have the US release, I usually turn on the German subtitles. Trust me, my meaning is definitely not from the English. Plus, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to go online and read what certain Japanese gestures roughly mean. In the time I've been learning Japanese, I've learned more than enough body language and vocal changes to understand the intents in AC. | |||
Pitch and tone, in case you haven't noticed, are present in the English, as well. The very reason why I call bullshit on this voice acting thing. You don't get anything extra out of it. You probably don't even pick up on things like dialect. Some might sound better, but others do not, and the vast majority are about equal. The "Japanese voice actors are better" thing is just utter nonsense. I don't remember the voice actors for AC very well, and a friend is borrowing it, but I do have an example of a veeeeeery bad Japanese voice acting performance. Do you watch Fullmetal Alchemist? | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 02:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I'm not even saying they're better! I'm saying they're what the characters should sound like, because they were the ones picked by Square! Localization teams across an ocean pick the English ones! | |||
Fallacious argument. Just because they were the original voices chosen, it doesn't mean that's how the characters "should" sound. What if they didn't have access to the kind of voice that they wanted, for example? Or, what if they make a bad choice? I'm sorry, but under no circumstances should a 16 year old boy sound like an 11 year old girl. That's also quite insulting to the localization teams, since it assumes that they aren't intelligent enough to grasp the concept of the character. Lastly, that was the first time I've ever seen an argument that truly attempted to justify the "Japanese voice actors are better" thing. It doesn't matter if you claim to not be saying that they're better, saying "that's how they should be" says it for you. Maybe you aren't saying that the voice actors are any more skilled, but you are saying that, regardless of any other factors, the Japanese voices will always be better, because they are the Japanese voices. Just the kind of thing I've been ranting about this whole time. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 03:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I honestly doubt adding a whole other language to the mix makes the possibility of matching the vision of a Japanese character designer go up. That would be like me, a non-speaker of Arabic, going, "You know what would make this character sound great in English? Some North African guy!" | |||
So, because the character is Japanese in origin, it is wrong if they speak any other language than Japanese? Even if their design comes from somewhere besides Japan? Yes, how COULD I have questioned your argument.[/sarcasm] The languages are chosen to make the character understandable. No other reason. If the language that the character spoke was so important, what do you think the odds are that Barret and Yuffie would speak the same language? That everyone in the world would speak the same language, and that it would just so happen to be the language that the audience speaks? You don't pay attention to the language when judging the character. You apply the suspension of disbelief to it. If you are talking about "tone, pitch, etc." as you put it, then YES, adding new languages would DRASTICALLY increase the chance of finding the right one! That's a whole frickin' million new candidates--no, much more than that! | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 20:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Keeping a work in its original language is respectful to its creator, like reading Dostoyevski in Russian or listening to Rammstein's German versions. | |||
It is not disrespectful to retranslate a work so that other audiences can understand it. That, coupled with the fact that the original creators [of the FF games at least] WORK WITH the localization teams, I'd have to say that your argument is becoming more and more of an asspull. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 05:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Is that just now becoming apparent? I was only arguing for the hell of it. It's funny to see how far people go to defend their beliefs against even the silliest of opposition. You, Mister Bower, are at 6 so far. | |||
It's funny, 'cause I was tryin' to troll you. Six? If you really wanted to get me to argue, you should have copy/pasta'd arguments from the FFVII sucks bandwagon. | |||
NEOGANONDORFF-I agree with NeoB, Translating works is not disrespectful. I'm not going to learn German to appreciate Rammstien and would certainly not learn Japanese to play ffx.
Master Conjurer — (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Yes, six. I came up with my own scale from 0 to ∞, which measures the extent to which you argue a particular belief. It originates in frequency of retorts, but rate, length, and severity are also factors. Interesting fact: admitting to attempting to troll me (who was ironically attempting to troll you) brought you up to 7. | |||
OK, I'm too lazy to see if this has been said yet but Tidus and Vaan are most likely not as hated as they appear. The fact is only people who hate them as characters feel the need to spout how much they "suck". The fact is I like both of these characters. They provide a level of depth to the story by simply sort of outside the story(one of the very reasons people complain about them). | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 23:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)The Otherworld, it hates you. | |||
As much as want to, I can't be bothered to go on in a long rant about the topic in question, so Im just going to say, is the reason people hate them because they are showing their chests. | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 23:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)"The Otherworld, it hates you". | |||
No Vaan sucks. Hard. Only Tidus's voice actor sucks. | |||
The above seems to be the consensus. Also, "This is how it is. Stop talking."=autofail. Neoganondorff: You showed up late, there was a troll fest. Werefang: I agree with you, too. Master Conjurer: Interesting fact: I stopped caring about your scale a while ago. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 02:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I sum up the extent to which I care for the objects of your care with this: 2 + 2 = 5, but only for high values of 2. | |||
Judge Balthier - Hamshanks! TALK - {{{time}}} "Nothing couldn't be further from my mind. Should I swear by your sword or some such?" | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 19:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Well, I'd say the point would be something like 5 or higher for each value of 2. | |||
There is no point to trolling. Even less of a point when 2 trolls start trying to prove that each other has a smaller troll club. | |||
I see the point in trolling but you automatically fail when you admit you're trolling.--BigCubby 08:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
There is no point in trolling. Besides, you admitted to it before I did. | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 16:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)"The Otherworld, it hates you". | |||
Can you all sign your confections elsewhere and stay on topic. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 19:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Actually, this topic was pretty much settled right before Neo and I started trolling each other, so that might as well be the topic now. And I don't think there can be success or failure if both parties involved were trolling. That seems to make it less of a competition and more of a conversation. | |||
Yeah, the issue is resolved. Most people accept that Tidus's alleged whininess is a necessary evil, but admit that his voice actor was bad. Those who like Vaan can't come up with reasoning that a third grader couldn't dispute. As to the apparent new topic, this is true. It is impossible to win or lose if and your opponent are trolling, because you need to do what would ordinarily make you the loser in order to win. It's really quite the conundrum. And what in Satan's glorious name is a confection? | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 00:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)"The Otherworld, it hates you". | |||
Probably spelt it wrong, but as you pretty much rounded up the argument, I will let you troll some more(or you could just make a new forum for to troll at). | |||
Nah, I'm not really that big of a troll. Whenever I make a topic, I probably need help with an FF. Then I start getting worried whenever I have over 9000 topics.... Also, I don't even know what you MEANT. | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 00:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)"The Otherworld, it hates you". | |||
Considering its the middle of the night where I live, I will have to attempt to find a readable spelling and good description tomorrow. Oh well. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I usually don't troll much, either. If you look at my user page, you can see that I claim to be a gnome. On a couple of wikis I dragon a little bit, but usually I just gnome. | |||
Gnome? You son of a bitch, you stole my job! Guess it's back to the bridge to come up with some new material...maybe I'll get a part-time job gorgoning.... | |||
MasterTheif34:I personally, liked tidus beacuse of the little things he does, like jump on someones head for a pair of binoculars, or screamin into the microphone and making an ass out of himself, youd never see anyone else doin that stuff, its beacuse unlike the other heroes tidus has EMOTION like zidane before him, thats why personally tidus is my favorite character and FFX is one of my favorite games. Vaan SUCKS .. PERIOD!!!!
Yeah, they're moving away from what I like to call the "mythological hero archetype." Tidus was always lookinng for a way to entertain himself & the group, which made him cool. Now, I wouldn't say EVERY other protagonist is emotionless. Cloud, for example, only seemed that way because he was insecure, & as a result, wouldn't do anything cool unless he was forced to, unlike the more spontaneous Tidus. That's why I can like them both pretty much equally. But yeah, I would say that the majority of FF hereoes have been rather stoical or stereotypical or underdeveloped. But hey, the series is evolving. But not every evolution is good, as that piece of shit Vaan serves to remind us. :D | |||
SilverDragon28 - The code for this template may one day reach such a size that it develops a mind of its own. TALK - 20:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Veni, vidi, vici. | |||
Hey, you can't get much further away from the "mythological hero archetype" than Vaan. | |||
Armageddon11 - Sind Sie das Essen? Nein, wir sind der Jäger! TALK - 20:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)"The Otherworld, it hates you". | |||
Yes, but move to far away and you'v got someone who has no importent influence in the plot, and who goes against the flow of the game, which in reality is a fantasy strategy kill-em-all. | |||
SilverDragon28 - "Oh! A lesson in not changing history from Mister 'I'm my own grandpa'!" TALK - 23:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Veni, vidi, vici. | |||
Yeah, when that happens, you get Vaan, AKA: the first playable background character. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 00:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I understand that Vaan is taken to an extreme that few are happy with, but I think that the purpose of undeveloped characters is being missed here. If a character is totally developed and all of his/her actions are decided by the designer, the player has a hard time relating to the character. When more things are left blank, the player can fill them in with his/her own story, thereby relating to and understanding the character. A great example is in the DNC right now. In the original FFII (waaay back in 1990), the characters didn't even have suggested names, let alone personalities. We knew "Maria" lost her brother to the empire, but nothing else. Therefore, you could insert the name of any female friend who has a brother (or even your name, if you're female), and it's them. What's the difference? Nothing. It's not possible to have a different personality/accent/skill/whatever. | |||
WTF? Are you trolling again? | |||
Jesus guys Dont start this againMasterTheif43 02:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Don't make me go upside your head! | |||
Undeveloped? Are you sure you've been paying attention to the game? I think you're mistaking layed back for undeveloped. You fail to notice that his life has fewer radical changes. Because of that he is the closest to a normal character that that has been seen in recent games. He didn't watch his home get burned down by his hero, he wasn't abandoned, he wasn't from another world yet somehow that makes him worse than the rest. If somehow being normal is bad then why aren't you hating yourself. Thank you. That is all. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 14:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
First off, that last bit was not trolling. Second, Werefang is saying much the same thing as I. Vaan is normal. You are normal. You may relate to Vaan. Somehow the formula has failed for Vaan personally, but it is used a lot in games. The best example ever is every game in which you actually make the main character (Mass Effect, FFXI, etc.), who is most often created in the player's image for that very reason. | |||
Vaan's brother was killed by the "traitor" to Rabanastre, not long after his parents died from a plague. Besides, plenty of characters have had no real traumatic pasts & still been interesting. What happened to Yuffie or Rikku? Nothing major. Now that I've pissed on the "Vaan is normal" argument.... If Vaan was meant to be relatable to people, someone was doing their job very, very wrong. He's effeminate, unusually proficient with weaponery despite having no practice whatsoever, and he gave up his desire for revenge waaaay too easily. As far as relatable protagonists go, Tidus fit the bill much more. Which brings me to my next point: A character doesn't have to be a pathetically blank, 2D being in order to be relatable. Cloud is insecure. This can be related to. Tidus has parent issues. This can be related to. Ramza has a strong sense of justice. This can be related to. You don't have to "make a character in your image" to relate to them. It's a common practice to make characters easy to relate to, but they still have markedly distinct personalities. Pretty much any main protagonist from anything is created for you to relate to them. The fact is that there is no good reason for a character to be underdeveloped, once they have their own name and personalized story. There's a difference between a blank slate class x race y character that you can choose all of the dialogue for and what Vaan is. The former is not underdeveloped, but the latter is. Having underdeveloped characters is bad. More often than not, they're boring &/or frustrating (as we're seeing here...), and they're a sign of a bad designer, or at the very least, a bad design concept/effort. This is why I assumed you were trolling. Lastly, Vaan is underdeveloped. He is not "laid back." Well, okay, he is laid back, but it's not a substitute for poor character development. If Vaan doesn't do anything noteworthy, he was developed badly. "He's just being laid back" is NO excuse for that. You're basically saying that he did nothing, showed no emotion, and amounted to nothinng. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like bad character development, to me. You can be laid back & not be part of the scenery. Hell, just look at Kunsel in Crisis Core--he's a MINOR character, & he's more important in CC than Vaan is in XII! As a matter of fact, even SUMMONS have better developed personalities than him. In X, you can tell that Bahamut is cocky & arrogant by the way he stands, & Valefor is shown to be/described as gentle a few times. As to what Vaan is supposed to be, personality trait-wise, I don't have a clue. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 02:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
I love how this whole thing hinges on Vaan being undeveloped. I really do, because it let's me do this: | |||
Not bad. That rivaled even my own rant. Even so, most of that is unrelated, so you don't get a glimpse into how he matured. He's rather static. And any change he makes seems to be handled really badly. He just sort of accepts the fact that Basch is telling the truth. I never got to Gabranth, so I don't know how he reacted then, so...meh. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 03:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
Actually, he made it very clear to Basch that he wasn't going to trust him. The acceptance took a few cutscenes. It seems fast if you're just zipping through the story. Square for some reason expects people to stop for the scenery. | |||
I have to agree with Conjurer on most of his comments(no DS so no RW comments). @Neo Bahamut:Most of your objections to Vaan are all founded on the logic concept of post hoc ergo procter hoc(sorry I don't rememby how exactly it's spelled). You say that Vaan is bad simply because he is bad. @Everyone:Don't post forums like this anymore. Otherwise you get stupid arguments from closed minded people who aren't paying attention anyway. | |||
Plus Neo, that Rikku and Yuffie comment would have only worked had the been non-normal themselves. | |||
No, the Rikku/Yuffie comment WOULDN'T have worked if they were not normal. Did you even read that section? And I said that Vaan WASN'T custom, which is why it would be bad for him to be underdeveloped. Arguments from closed-minded people who aren't paying attention anyway. How hypocritically judgemental of you. My argument is NOT "Vaan is bad because he's bad." Where are you getting this? I said he doesn't develop. MasterConjurer more-or-less gave me his start-of-game description. He proved that there was a character THERE, not that it was well-developed. To emphasize this, the latest "developement" that he lists is Vaan's acceptance of Basch, which I'd gotten to before I stopped playing. Am I to understand that that's all the more developement he gets in XII? Because if so, that only proves my point. Nothing with Gabranth, nothing with Cid, no big revelations, no deep conversations with any of the other protagonists, nothing with Venat or Vayne, no reactions whatsoever. It's like he ceases to exist whenever Basch & Ashe formally join the party. Now, there seems to be a little bit more in Revanent Wings, but that hardly makes up for anything. If I am wrong, I'd love to hear the evidence, but for right now, I'm just working with what I'm getting. As for zipping through the story, I assure you, I do not do that. Back before the Ultimania book was published, I got the whole Sephiroth/Jenovva relationship, which some people still struggle with. But that's a story for another day. The fact is that I haven't played XII in a very long time, and I didn't get very far in it (because I didn't like much about the game, characters included--you might be able to tell this) so I hope you'll excuse me if I'm not as good arguing about Vaan as I am about Tidus. | |||
Master Conjurer — (talk) 06:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
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I think these are some good examples of his part. Childish but deep, reminds me of Zidane. | |||
Ok, sorry. I guess I need to explain myself. Your argument that Vaan is bad because he was underdeveloped only makes sense to people who weren't paying attention to the developement. Your problem with Vaan seems to be the fact that he is not a Marty Stu hero or some sort of chariciture. Had he been designed to your less than expert specifications, someone would have found something else wrong with him: he's over the top, a take off of another character,cliche, etc. You yourself said you haven't finished the game so you don't know the end. You haven't seen how he is in the end anyway. As for the Rikku/Yuffie comment, sorry again. I simply thought that since you felt the need to post it, that it was supposed to mean something. Also, on the Vaan is not normal because of his hard life, his life is amost a rip off of my father's. | |||
Proof of developement:Early in the story, Vaan's hatred is not a catytist of any real action. He knows he can't do anything so he just makes empty threats. As the story progresses Vaan abandons hatred gradually and actually does something. Unlike other Final Fantasies, you don't start the game knowing what you will do by the end(in VII you knew you'd be fighting Sephiroth in the end). In actuallity, XII contains some of the most well developed characters in the series. Whether you like this developement is up to you. | |||
I will get to those videos if I can, but I have internet problems that, unfortunately, require me to have a YouTube video loading at all times, in order to keep connected. As such, it becomes sort of a pain to try to watch them. But, well, like I said, I'll see what I can do. As to Werefang: Your argument hinges on there actually being development THERE. While I liked MasterConjurer's argument, it still has one glaring flaw: it almost entirely lists characteristics that were present in Vaan from the start of the game, and doesn't make a really significant case for change over time. My "problem," as you say, is not that Vaan isn't a Mary Stu--althought that isn't necessarily bad, if it is done well (Batman, for example, is always VERY Mary Stu), I feel the need to point that out--my problem is that Vaan does nothing. At all. Of anmy relevence. Almost all of the time. As to what the Rikku/Yuffie comment meant, YES, it did mean something, but it had nothing to do with them being abnormal. As a matter of fact, if they were, that would make the whole argument worthless. The point is that a character CAN have a normal past and still be interesting. That I never denied that. Although, Vaan's past IS NOT normal. Yes, it CAN happen. But the odds are very, very, very, VERY low. That makes it abnormal. It doesn't have to be impossible to be abnormal. In VII, you only knew you'd be fighting Sephiroth at the end because VII was pretty much mythical by the point many people played it. You can take one look at Vayne & know you're going to fight him at the end. The characters are very poorly devbeloped--that is the entire reason I do not like them. I don't "dislike the development," I dislike the LACK OF development. It is true that I did not get to the end, but it doesn't matter. I could argue Sephiroth or Cloud's character development in a way that someone who never played the game could understand. | |||
The reason why they included Vaan was so that they had a younger male “lead” instead of Basche, who was originally meant to be the main character. If Vaan was put in for that reason Penelo would have followed suit (since all she does is follow him blindly). You’d think since he becomes the protagonist, or at the very least the observer of the events unfolding he would have more gravitas and/or insights into the story, yet he doesn’t. Vaan and Penelo are the stereotypical orphans joining a ragtag group of outcasts. They want revenge, but eventually they learn revenge is not the answer. But what does Ashe learn? Revenge is not the answer. And Basche? Revenge is not the answer. They had such a small main cast and yet all were so underdeveloped (having Ashe as the main character and finding out more about Fran would have been good). I disliked Vaan the most because he and Penelo are completely and utterly superfluous. And Tidus? Ignore the HAHAHA in Luca and the terrible voice acting and he's a decent character Hylesaul 14:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)